WELCOME BACK OUR GUEST THIS WEEK IS DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE DAVID LA GRAND WORKING ON MORE TRANSPARENCY IN STATE GOVERNMENT OUR LEAD STORIES THE COVID NUMBERS START TO MOVE DOWN BUT STILL NOT GOD ON THE PANEL JONATHAN OOSTING EMILY LAWLER AND RICK ALBIN.

SIT IN WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT OFF THE RECORD.

PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING, BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN ROAD TO TOP TEN.COM.

AND NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD WITH TIM SKUBICK.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH WELCOME BACK TO ZOOM EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD AND ON OUR PANEL IS JONATHAN OOSTING, EMILY LAWLER AND RICK ALBIN AND GOOD TO SEE YOU HEALTHY WITH SHOTS IN YOUR ARMS AND GOOD STUFF AND JONATHAN WE ARE REJOICING IN MICHIGAN BECAUSE OUR COVID NUMBERS ARE DOWN BUT THEY ARE STILL ROTTEN, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.

WE ARE SEEING SOME POSITIVE SIGNS THAT PERHAPS THIS SURGE HAS PEAKED AND THE STARTING TO DECLINE, CASE COUNTS, YOU KNOW, YESTERDAY I BELIEVE IT WAS ABOUT 5,000 WHICH WAS DOWN FOR MORE THAN 6,000 A WEEK AGO.

HOSPITALIZATIONS ALSO ARE STILL VERY HIGH, BUT APPEAR TO HAVE TRICKLED OFF A BIT IN THE LAST COUPLE DAYS AND OF COURSE THAT IS A LAGGING INDICATOR.

SO I THINK IT'S TOO SOON TO SAY WHETHER YOU KNOW WE ARE DEFINITELY YOU KNOW HEADING TOWARDS BLUE SKIES HERE, BUT CERTAINLY SOMETHING TO BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT.

>> ARE YOU REJOICING YET EMILY?

>> NOT QUITE YET.

IT'S FUNNY HOW RELATIVE ALL OF THESE NUMBERS END UP BEING, RIGHT?

SO FOR INSTANCE OUR FALL PEAK I REMEMBER THINKING OH, MY GOSH WE ARE ON THIS SURGE UP WARD ARE WE GOING TO REACH WHERE WE WERE LAST SPRING AND OF COURSE THE ANSWER WAS WE FAR SURPASSED THAT PARTIALLY DUE TO THE AVAILABILITY OF TESTING.

AND THEN YOU KNOW WE GET TO THE SPRING SURGE AND SORT OF SAME THING IT'S A LITTLE BIT RELATIVE IN TERMS OF HOW WE CAN OUT DO NUMBERS FROM LAST TIME AND NOBODY WANTS TO SEE BUT I THINK LIKE JONATHAN SAID THERE IS REASON TO BELIEVE THAT WE MAY BE ROUNDING A BIT OF A BEND HERE AND WE WILL SEE WHERE THAT LEADS.

>> AND MR. ALBIN.

>> BOY, I THINK IT'S INTERESTING FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THAT WE HAVE HAD SO MANY PEOPLE VACCINATED ALREADY IN THE STATE.

AND THERE STILL IS HESITANCY OUT THERE.

WE KNOW THAT IS GOING TO BE A PROBLEM TO GET TO THAT 70%.

>> HUGE.

>> BUT IT STANDS TO REASON THAT AS MORE PEOPLE ARE VACCINATED THAT LESS PEOPLE IF EVERYTHING ABOUT THE VACCINE WE HAVE BEEN TOLD IS TRUE AND I ASSUME THAT IT IS THEN THOSE NUMBERS SHOULD START TO DROP OFF A LITTLE BIT.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS, IS WHAT IF YOU DON'T GET TO 70%?

WHAT IF YOU ONLY GET TO 50%?

DO WE STILL HAVE THIS POSSIBILITY FOR THE SURGES AS WE MOVE ON INTO THE YEAR?

AND WHAT HAPPENS TO THE ABILITY TO MORE FULLY REOPEN?

TO GET BACK TO 100%, ARE WE GOING TO BE WEARING MASKS THIS TIME NEXT YEAR?

HOW MUCH SOCIAL DISTANCING WILL WE CONTINUE TO HAVE TO DO EVEN WITH VACCINATIONS AND WHEN WILL WE ALL BE ABLE TO SIT AROUND THE OTR TABLE AND TALK TO EACH OTHER ONCE AGAIN?

RATHER THAN IN OUR SEPARATE CUBITALS.

>> DID WE USE TO DO THAT AND SIT AROUND?

ANYBODY REMEMBER THAT.

>> THE LAST SHOW BEFORE YOU KICKED US ALL OUT.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT WAS MY CHOICE BELIEVE ME.

LET'S TURN THE PAGE AND JONATHAN HOW SERIOUS IS THE GOVERNOR'S FLORIDA PROBLEM?

>> WELL, RIGHT NOW I THINK IT'S MORE AN ISSUE OF TRANSPARENCY, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT HAS, YOU KNOW, TRIPPED THE GOVERNOR UP A COUPLE TIMES RECENTLY WITH THE SEVERANCE PACKAGES THAT WERE SECRET.

YOU KNOW IT WOULD BE PRETTY EASY FOR THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE TO SAY WHEN SHE TRAVELED, WHERE SHE TRAVELED TO.

BUT THEY REFUSED TO DO SO.

I MEAN WE SUSPECT IT WAS FLORIDA BECAUSE SHE DID SAY SHE VISITED HER FATHER WHO IS ILL AND HE HAS A PLACE IN FLORIDA SO WE SUSPECT IT WAS THAT.

THEY SAID IT WAS MORE THAN A MONTH AGO BUT WON'T GIVE A SPECIFIC DATE.

BUT IT OPENS UP A LOT OF QUESTIONS, WHEN WAS THE GOVERNOR OUT OF THE STATE AND WHEN THEREFORE WAS SHE NOT THE ACTING GOVERNOR FOR INSTANCE?

HOW DID SHE TRAVEL?

WHAT PLANES DID SHE TRAVEL ON?

SO, YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS FIRE BEYOND THAT SMOKE?

BUT CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE REFUSAL TO BE TRANSPARENT IS LEAVING A LOT OF QUESTIONS LINGERING OUT THERE.

>> RICK IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO GIVE THE STORY LEGS AND THEY TRIED TO PUT TWO LEGS ON IT THIS WEEK, DID THEY MAKE IT OR NOT?

>> WELL, I REALLY DON'T KNOW.

FIRST OF ALL, LET'S HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A HUMANITY HERE.

I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND WHY THE GOVERNOR WOULD WANT TO VISIT HER FATHER PARTICULARLY IF HE IS NOT IN GOOD HEALTH.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS HEALTH CONDITION IS AND WOULD NOT PRESUME TO KNOW.

PARDON ME.

BUT WITH THAT SAID, I AND MY FAMILY HAVE EXPERIENCED THE DEATH OF A LOVED ONE IN A NURSING HOME WHERE FAMILY COULDN'T GO VISIT AND COULDN'T SEE AND I KNOW WHAT THE PAIN AND THE ANGST OF THAT IS.

AND SO WHAT WE ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT IS OPTICS.

IS THIS A GOOD LOOK FOR PEOPLE HERE IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN TO BE KEPT AWAY FROM THEIR LOVED ONES AND THE GOVERNOR HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO SEE HER FATHER.

AGAIN, I TAKE, YOU KNOW, NOTHING AWAY FROM THAT BECAUSE WE ALL WOULD LIKE TO.

BUT I WOULD GO WITH JONATHAN ON THIS.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS AND THIS ALREADY HAPPENED THEN LET'S EITHER DO A TALK TILL YOU DROP NEWS CONFERENCE OR AT LEAST FULL DISCLOSURE ABOUT WHERE, WHEN, HOW AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS SO YOU CAN SAY, LOOK, THERE IS NO THERE, THERE THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED, THIS IS HOW IT HAPPENED AND KIND OF PUT IT TO REST.

BECAUSE NOW WE HAVE SEEN A COUPLE OF CASES FROM THE GOVERNOR TALKING ABOUT ROBERT GORDON AT ONE POINT SHE SAID SHE WOULD NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT THAT AND THE OFFICE SAID THEY WON'T HAVE ANYTHING MORE TO SAY ABOUT THAT AND FROM A REPORTER STANDPOINT ONCE YOU SAY I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING MORE TO SAY ABOUT THAT I START HAVING MORE QUESTIONS.

>> IT LEAVES A VACUUM AS WE SAY.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THIS STORY, THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE HAS NOT SAID WHAT THE NEEDS WERE OF HER FATHER WHO IS 80 YEARS OLD.

HE DOES HAVE A CHRONIC ILLNESS.

BUT NOBODY HAS SAID HE WAS ON HIS DEATH BED, NOBODY SAID HE WAS UNDER ANY EXTREME HEALTH CONCERNS.

THAT REMAINS AN UNANSWERED QUESTION.

AND THE REPUBLICANS IN TAKING ON THE GOVERNOR EMILY HAVE BEEN VERY CAREFUL TO SAY THIS IS NOT ABOUT VISITING THE DAD IN FLORIDA, THIS IS ABOUT THE HYPOCRISY OF TELLING US THE STATE DON'T TRAVEL THEN THE GOVERNOR TRAVELS.

>> THE GOVERNOR HERSELF IN A "WASHINGTON POST" EVENT THIS WEEK SAID THAT HER FATHER IS A DEEPLY PRIVATE PERSON.

THAT SHE WAS YOU KNOW REGRETTING THAT SHE HAD TO TALK ABOUT IT AS MUCH AS SHE HAD ALREADY.

AND WE DON'T KNOW A LOT OF DETAILS ABOUT HIS MEDICAL CONDITION OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

CERTAINLY.

BUT I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, TIM WHEN YOU SAID THEY TRIED THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO GIVE THIS STORY TO LEGS I THINK THEY ARE THE TWO LEGS THAT JONATHAN AND RICK JUST TALKED ABOUT.

JONATHAN TALKED ABOUT THE TRANSPARENCY ISSUE THAT THEY BROUGHT UP AND RICK TALKED TO SORT OF THIS HYPOCRISY ISSUE.

AND I THINK THAT REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING THEIR HARDEST TO MAKE THAT STICK.

BUT YOU KNOW I THINK THAT ALSO IT SORT OF FALLS IN THIS PATTERN CERTAINLY IT'S DIFFERENT THAN TOP WHITMER STAFFERS WHO HAVE GONE ON VACATIONS RECENTLY, NOT TRIPS FOR MEDICAL TO VISIT ILL FAMILY MEMBERS BY ANY MEANS BUT I DO THINK THAT YOU KNOW REPUBLICANS ARE SORT OF TRYING TO POINT TO THIS PATTERN OF WHITMER SAYING ONE THING OR REQUIRING ONE THING AND MAYBE HAVING HER TOP OFFICIALS OR HER CIRCLE DO ANOTHER THING.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT'S BEEN OR THAT IS GOING TO BE TERRIBLY EASY ESPECIALLY BECAUSE YOU KNOW, GOING FORWARD I WOULD BE SURPRISED IF WE HEAR ABOUT TOO MANY OF THESE TRIPS OR IF TRIPS ARE AN ISSUE A FEW MONTHS FROM NOW ESPECIALLY WITH I THINK THE C.D.C.

APPROVING TRAVEL FOR FULLY VACCINATED INDIVIDUALS IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.

>> THE WE CAN ROLL THE TAPE BACK A MONTH OR SO AND SITTING AROUND THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE SAYING WE ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS TRIP TO FLORIDA WOULD IT HAVE BEEN A GOOD IDEA TO SAY LET'S ANNOUNCE WE ARE DOING THIS, THE BEST DEFENSE IS AN ABSOLUTE POSITIVE OFFENSE, WOULD SHE HAVE TAKEN A HIT FOR IT?

ABSOLUTELY.

WOULD THE HIT BE AS DEEP AS IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN MR. ALBIN IF YOU WERE AROUND THAT TABLE WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> ONCE YOU ANSWERED ALL THE QUESTIONS, ONCE EMILY AND JONATHAN DON'T HAVE ANY MORE QUESTIONS TO ASK YOU, THEN YOU CAN MANAGE WHATEVER THAT IS.

IF YOU CONTINUE TO LEAVE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS AND I APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT THEY THINK THEY ARE QUESTIONS THAT DON'T NEED TO BE ANSWERED BUT THAT DOESN'T KEEP PEOPLE LIKE US FROM ASKING THOSE QUESTIONS.

AND I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE MORE OF THAT, TIM.

I SHOULD POINT OUT WHEN ROBERT GORDON ANSWERS THAT SUBPOENA OVER IN THE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE WE WILL SEE A LOT MORE QUESTIONS AND INTERESTING TO SEE IF WE HAVE MORE ANSWERS ABOUT THAT.

I THINK ALL OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH TRANSPARENCY AND AGAIN OPTICS, YOU KNOW.

IF YOU COME OUT UP FRONT AND SAY THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED, THIS IS WHAT I'M GOING TO DO, I'M GOING TO VISIT MY FATHER, I'M GOING TO BE GONE FOR FOUR DAYS OR TWO DAYS OR WHATEVER IT IS.

I THINK IT'S MUCH MORE MANAGEABLE.

>> YEAH ALL RIGHT LET'S TURN THE PAGE.

WE HAVE A NICE LITTLE FIGHT GOING ON WHETHER THESE 39 BILLS ARE ELECTION REFORM OR SUPPRESSION JONATHAN AND JOCELYN BENSON IS CLEARLY ON A MISSION HAVING STAGED HER SECOND MAJOR NEWS CONFERENCE IN TWO WEEKS, WHAT WAS YOUR TAKE AWAY FROM THAT?

WHAT IS SHE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT?

>> WELL, I MEAN I DO THINK SHE IS WORRIED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, REPUBLICANS PUTTING A SPIN ON THIS NOW THAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH COMMITTEE.

THEY ARE TAKING UP SOME OF THE LOWER HANGING FRUIT YOU COULD SAY IMMEDIATELY.

AND MAYBE SORT OF INOCULATING THE PUBLIC TO THESE BILLS A LITTLE BIT.

SOME OF THE METTY AND MORE CONTROVERSIAL BILLS WOULD MAKE VOTING HARDER IN A NUMBER OF INSTANCES AND WOULD POTENTIALLY HURT DEMOCRATS.

IN THE 2022 ELECTION.

YOU KNOW, WHO BENEFITTED OR AT LEAST WON IN 2020 WHEN THERE WAS A VERY LARGE TURN OUT.

SO YOU KNOW, SHE IS TRYING TO GET OUT AHEAD OF THIS THING.

SHE IS TRYING TO KEEP THE ATTENTION ON TO SOME OF THOSE MORE CONTROVERSIAL BILLS AS OPPOSED TO THE YOU KNOW SORT OF FEEL GOOD BILLS THAT MIGHT PASS INITIALLY AND, YOU KNOW, SORT OF MAKING THE CASE POTENTIALLY FOR VOTERS WHO MIGHT SEE THESE THINGS BEFORE THEM IN A PETITION DRIVE IF THE GOVERNOR VETOES THEM.

>> BINGO THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

THE GOVERNOR SAID EMILY I'M GOING TO VETO THIS STUFF SO WHAT ARE WE WORRIED ABOUT.

SHE DIDN'T SAY SHE IS TRYING TO INOCCUR LATE THE ELECTORATE BUT IT CERTAINLY SOUNDED TO ME SHE WAS AT ONE POINT SHE SAID IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SIGN A PETITION I WANT TO KNOW, THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S IN THIS STUFF, RIGHT?

>> YEAH, THERE HAS BEEN SORT OF A LONGSTANDING CONCERN THAT YOU KNOW BY GATHERING SIGNATURES FROM I THINK WHAT EQUATES TO 4% OF THE POPULATION.

>> YES.

>> A LOW NUMBER OF THE POPULATION ESSENTIALLY CAN OVER RIDE OR REPLACE THE GOVERNOR'S SIGNATURE IN THE PROCESS.

SO I DO THINK THAT DEMOCRATS ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND SAYING, WELL, REPUBLICANS COULD TAKE US OUT OF THE EQUATION COMPLETELY IF THEY WERE TO PURSUE THAT ROUTE.

>> RICKEY.

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF PROBLEMS AND THAT IS THAT AS YOU GO INTO THESE THINGS AND THEY SET WITH THE HEARINGS AND START WITH THE LESS CONTROVERSIAL BILLS AS JONATHAN WAS TALKING ABOUT MOVING TOWARDS THE OTHERS MAYBE WITH NO REAL INTENTION TO EVER BRING SOME OF THOSE MORE CONTROVERSIAL THINGS TO A VOTE BUT INSTEAD GO TO THAT INITIATIVE PETITION, BUT THE IDEA IS THAT IF YOU'RE GOING TO GO TO AN INITIATIVE PETITION YOU CAN'T PUT THE LANGUAGE OF 39 BILLS INTO AN INITIATIVE PETITION.

YOU WILL NEVER GET ON THE BALLOT SO THEY WILL HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT IT IS THEY WANT TO DO.

AND THEN HOW QUICKLY CAN YOU GET THAT DONE.

AND THEN IF THE LEGISLATURE ACTING ON IT AFFIRMATIVELY HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO MAKE ITS WAY THROUGH THE COURTS BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE ITS WAY THROUGH THE COURTS.

SO I DON'T KNOW IF ANY OF THIS IS REALLY GETS DONE IN ANY MANNER FOR THE 2022 ELECTIONS.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S KIND OF BIG AND CUMBERSOME AND HERE WE ARE, IT'S ALREADY APRIL.

I DON'T KNOW.

IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S KIND OF A LONG SHOT.

>> WELL LET'S PUT A RIBBON ON THIS THING.

THIS WAS ALL GENERATED BY THE ALLEGED IRREGULARITIES OF THE ELECTION IN MICHIGAN WHICH THE SECRETARY OF STATE SAID WAS JUST NOT IT WAS A PHONY STORY BUT THIS WAS A PLAY TO THE BASE, OKAY, IF YOU ARE A TRUMP REPUBLICAN YOU ARE PUTTING THIS STUFF OUT THERE TO KEEP THE PEOPLE AT HOME, MAYBE KNOWING IN THE BACK OF YOUR HEAD NOT A LOT OF THIS IS GOING TO FLY BUT YOU GET A PRESS RELEASE, YOU GET EVERYBODY ATTENTION AND CERTAINLY GOT JOCELYN BENSON'S ATTENTION AND NOW LET'S GET THE ATTENTION OF DAVID LA GRAND ARE YOU OVER THERE IN WEST MICHIGAN GOOD MORNING.

>> I'M HERE I JUST GOT TOLD TO TILT MY SCREEN, WE ARE IN A NEW WORLD HERE INSTEAD OF IN THE STUDIO AND NEED TO GET THE GLARE OFF MY NOSE.

>> YOU LOOK LIKE A SCREEN TILTER AND LET'S TALK ABOUT TRANSPARENCY IN GOVERNMENT IT APPEARS IT'S AN OBSTACLE TO SOME OF YOUR LEGISLATION, DO YOU HAVE A STRATEGY YOU CAN SHARE WITH US TODAY TO GO AROUND MR. SHIRKEY OR ARE YOU JUST GOING TO LET HIM KILL THIS STUFF?

>> UNFORTUNATELY THERE HAS BEEN A DEVELOPMENT IN THIS.

SO I THINK MAYBE THIS IS THE MOST, THIS MAY BE THE BIGGEST THING THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS CYCLE IF WE CARE ABOUT DEMOCRACY AND TRANSPARENCY WHICH, YOU KNOW, WHICH ARE THEMES FROM THE BEGINNING OF YOUR SHOW HERE.

A GROUP AND I CAN'T STRESS ENOUGH, THIS IS A BIPARTISAN GROUP OF US REPRESENTATIVE HUIZENGA AND CALLEY AND RENO FROM THE OTHER SIDE ARE PART OF AN EIGHT BILL PACKAGE WE HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR MULTIPLE SESSIONS TO HAVE REAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE TO THE PEOPLE ABOUT POLITICIANS FINANCES.

AND THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

I THINK UNLESS YOU HAVE BEEN LOOKING OVER A ROCK YOU KNOW IN THE UNITED STATES WE HAVE A CRISIS OF CONFIDENCE BETWEEN THE VOTERS AND THE PEOPLE.

AND YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR AS THIS HAS BEEN DEVELOPING LOOK THE RELATIONSHIP IS BASED ON SECRETS DON'T WORK, DOESN'T WORK IN MARRIAGES, DOESN'T WORK IN FRIENDSHIP AND CERTAINLY DOESN'T WORK WITH THE VOTERS.

>> REPRESENTATIVE ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS GROUP YOU PUT TOGETHER ARE THE DESTINY IS TO GO AROUND MR. SHIRKEY?

>> THE HOPE I WOULDN'T SAY GO AROUND I HOPE HE GIVES US A FAIR HEARING.

THE CONCERN AND THE CONCERNING DEVELOPMENT THIS WEEK IS THAT OUR BILL PACKAGE GOT EDITED AND REINTRODUCED SO THAT RATHER THAN REAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE THE PROPOSAL THERE IS A PARALLEL PROPOSAL NOW TO HAVE FRAUDULENT OR HYPOCRITICAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE BECAUSE IT WOULD BE DISCLOSURE TO A SECRET COMMITTEE WHICH WOULD BE EXEMPT FROM THE OPEN MEETINGS ACT.

AND THEN CITIZENS COULD MAKE ETHICAL COMPLAINTS ABOUT REPRESENTATIVE'S FINANCIAL CONFLICTS BUT HOW ARE THEY GOING TO KNOW, HOW WOULD THEY POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT THE CONFLICTS ARE IF THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE INFORMATION.

>> WHO PROPOSED THAT?

>> IT WAS INTRODUCED THIS WEEK.

THERE IS A NARRATIVE THAT THIS IS SOME YOU KNOW WORKED OUT DEAL AMONG PEOPLE AND I CAN'T SPEAK TO THAT.

THE REALITY IS IT WAS INTRODUCED THIS WEEK WITH SOME AFFIRMATIVE COMMENTS FROM SOME MEMBERS OOF THE LEGISLATURE.

BUT YOU KNOW, MY URGENCY HERE IS TO FLAG THAT IF WE DON'T DISCLOSE TO THE PUBLIC IT'S NOT DISCLOSURE.

>> EMILY.

>> I INCLUDE OF COURSE THE PRESS.

IF THE PRESS CAN'T HAVE ACCESS TO THIS INFORMATION, THEY CAN'T INFORM THE PEOPLE AND THAT'S INCREDIBLY DISTURBING.

>> EMILY.

>> WHAT MAIN STUMBLING BLOCKS HAVE YOU RUN INTO PREVIOUS ITERATIONS OF THE LEGISLATION AND HOW DO YOU PLAN TO GET AROUND THOSE THIS TIME?

>> THIS IS ME THE HOPELESS OPTIMIST WHAT YOU SAY WHAT ROADBLOCKS HAVE I ENCOUNTERED WHEN WE FIRST INTRODUCED THESE BILLS FOUR YEARS AGO THERE WERE FOUR OF US STANDING AT A PODIUM AND NO ONE WAS LISTENING TO US.

WE HAD A PODIUM OUT IN FRONT OF THE CAPITOL AND NO ONE SHOWED UP.

AND WE MOVED FROM THAT TO INDIVIDUAL CONVERSATIONS BECAUSE PEOPLE CHANGE IS HARD AND NO ONE WANTS TO DISCLOSE PRIVATE INFORMATION, RIGHT?

WE ALL HAVE THIS INSTINCT FOR PRIVACY.

AND SO I REMEMBER HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH BILL SOWERBEE ONE OF THE FOUR BILL SPONSORS IN THE FIRST CONVERSATION HE SAID I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT THEN HE WENT HOME FOR THE WEEKEND AND CAME BACK AND SAID WE NEED TO DO THIS, IT'S OUR ETHICAL RESPONSIBILITY AND BILL HAS BEEN WITH IT EVER SINCE.

SENATOR RUMSTEAD IN THE SENATE A REPUBLICAN WAS NOT INTERESTED IN THIS TWO YEARS AGO.

NOW HE IS FULLY ON BOARD AND GIVING INTERVIEWS ON THE SUBJECT.

SO THE OBSTACLES I'M HAVING ARE SIMPLY TIME.

I MEAN ALL WE HAVE DONE IS GROW SUPPORT FOR THIS.

SO OUR REAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE ARE NOT FRAUDULENT FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE PACKAGE HAS 63 COSPONSORS, THAT IS MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE.

SO THIS WOULD PASS TOMORROW IF IT CAME UP FOR A VOTE AND IF IT WAS NOT DISTORTED INTO SECRET DISCLOSURE WHICH IS OF COURSE A CONTRADICTION IN TERMS.

>> JONATHAN.

>> REPRESENTATIVE, THIS PROPOSAL WOULD CREATE, THE NEW PROPOSAL UNVEILED THIS WEEK WOULD CREATE AS YOU PUT IT A SECRET BOARD AND THEY WOULD TAKE PRIVATE CONFIDENTIAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES AND WOULDN'T HAVE TO OPERATE UNDER THE OPEN MEETING ACT AND WOULD BE A BIPARTISAN BOARD, HOWEVER, AND IT SEEMS TO BE ADDRESSING SOME CONCERNS FROM SENATE MAJORITY LEADER MIKE SHIRKEY AND HE SAID HE DOESN'T WANT THE PRESS, THE PUBLIC TO BE ABLE TO BEAT LAWMAKERS OVER THEIR PERSONAL FINANCIAL INFORMATION.

IS THIS YOU KNOW IS THIS BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, GIVING UP THAT FIGHT TO APPEASE SENATOR SHIRKYY?

>> I THINK IT IS AND THERE ARE A COUPLE ANSWERS TO THIS, RIGHT, ONE IS I WOULD LIKE TO TRY TO CHANGE SENATOR SHIRKEY'S MIND AND SECOND OF ALL IT'S INCREDIBLY TOXIC.

I MEAN YOU CAN SAY THAT IT'S A BIPARTISAN GROUP.

BUT IMAGINE FOR A MOMENT I MEAN THE OLD LORD ACTING COMMENT THAT POWER CORRUPTS AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT GIVING FOUR PEOPLE IN THE LEGISLATURE POTENTIALLY YOU KNOW BLACKMAILABLE INFORMATION ABOUT EVERYBODY ELSE ON THE LEGISLATURE.

I DON'T CARE IF THEY ARE DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS.

IMAGINE HOW MUCH POWER THAT MEANS.

YOU COULD GO TO YOU KNOW REPRESENTATIVE SMITH AND SAY HEY, IT WOULD BE A SHAME IF WE HAD TO OPEN AN INVESTIGATION ON YOU, HOW ABOUT YOU SUPPORT THE THING I WANT TO DO SO YOU HAVE FOUR PEOPLE IN THE LEGISLATURE THEN WHO ESSENTIALLY HAVE SUPER POWERS WHICH IS AND BLACKMAIL SUPER POWERS RIGHT.

THIS IS THE OPPOSITE.

I MEAN THIS IS NOT A COMPROMISE.

THIS IS TAKING A GOOD, IMPORTANT THING WHICH MIGHT HEAL DEMOCRACY AND MIGHT RESTORE VOTER TRUST AND MIGHT HELP THE PRESS TAKING THAT, DOING THE OPPOSITE AND CLAIMING THAT YOU'VE MADE PROGRESS.

THAT'S WHITE WASHING.

THAT IS ACTUALLY TAKING A STEP BACKWARDS NO MATTER WHAT SPIN YOU TRY TO PUT ON IT IF IT'S NOT DISCLOSURE TO THE PEOPLE IT IS A LIE.

IF IT'S NOT DISCLOSURE TO THE PRESS, IT IS A LIE.

IT DOESN'T HELP, IT MAKES THINGS WORSE.

I'M AFRAID THAT LOOK IN LANSING, IN POLITICS TWO PROBLEMS ONE IS IT'S A BUBBLE.

SO IF YOU TRUST EVERYBODY THERE, I TRUST ALL MY COLLEAGUES, THEY ARE GREAT PEOPLE.

I DON'T THINK FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE IS GOING TO FIND OUT THAT REPRESENTATIVE X IS TAKING KICKBACKS FROM EAGLE.

THE POINT IS WE HAVE LOST TRUST WITH THE VOTERS.

AND IF YOU HAVE LOST TRUST YOU CAN BE ANGRY ABOUT I AND YOU CAN THINK THE VOTERS ARE WRONG, YOU CAN THINK THEY ARE STUPID BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IF MY WIFE DOESN'T TRUST ME I HAVE TO DO AFFIRMATIVE ASK TO REBUILD THE TRUST AND NOT BE ANGRY AT HER.

WE LOST VOTER TRUST 40% OF THE COUNTRY THINKS WE ARE NOT COUNTING THE BALLOTS IF WE CAN'T TAKE AFFIRMATIVE STEPS TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE VOTERS AND THE PRESS I'M WORRIED THAT REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY IS NOT GOING TO CONTINUE TO FUNCTION.

AND I LIKE AMERICA.

I LOVE THE DREAM OF A COUNTRY WHERE EVERYONE IS ACTUALLY INVOLVED.

AND MAKING SOMETHING HAPPEN BEHIND CLOSED DOORS JUST PERPETUATES BUBBLE CULTURE, IT'S TOXIC.

>> MR. ALBIN.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU THIS REPRESENTATIVE.

IF YOU HAVE 63 PEOPLE THAT ARE SPONSORING THIS ISSUE ACCURATELY POINT OUT IT WOULD PASS ON TUESDAY.

WHAT IS HOLDING IT UP?

IS IT REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP THAT IS NOT GOING TO LET THIS COME TO THE FLOOR IN THE FORM THAT YOU HAVE IT WITH THAT KIND OF SUPPORT?

>> YOU KNOW, I CAN'T SPEAK TO THAT.

I GUESS MY POINT AND I DIDN'T FINISH THINKING ABOUT THE SENATOR SHIRKEY PROBLEM, I WOULD LOVE TO SIT DOWN WITH HIM AND WE WERE HOPING TO THE GROUP WORKING ON IT AND SAY LOOK THIS IS NOT THAT SCARY AND APPLIES TO LEGISLATURES GOING FORWARD AND IT WOULD NOT APPLY TO YOU.

IT DOES NOT HAVE DOLLAR FIGURES ASSOCIATED AND TRYING TO IDENTIFY SOURCES OF CONFLICT.

THE PROBLEM IN LANSING WE COMPROMISE A LOT SO SOMETIMES YOU THINK ANYTHING THAT LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE ELSE WILL AGREE TO IT MUST BE A COMPROMISE.

IN THIS CASE SURE SENATOR SHIRKEY MIGHT AGREE TO FRAUDULENT DISCLOSURE BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT A COMPROMISE.

THAT MAKES IT A REALLY SMART MOVE ON HIS PART IF HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY WANT DISCLOSURE.

BUT I REMAIN HOPEFUL THAT THAT IS NOT HIS REAL GOAL, THAT HE JUST HASN'T REALLY THOUGHT THIS THROUGH ENOUGH BECAUSE I GOT TO BELIEVE HE HAS THE SAME CONCERNS ABOUT VOTER TRUST THAT I DO.

I MEAN HE HAS LIVED THERE ON HIS SIDE OF THE PARTY AND HIS SIDE OF THE SPECTRUM VOTERS DISTRUSTING AN ELECTION.

I GOT TO HOPE THAT SENATOR SHIRKEY UNDERSTANDS WE HAVE TO WORK TO RESTORE TRUST WHICH IS WHAT OUR WORK HAS BEEN ABOUT FOR FOUR YEARS.

>> WELL IT LOOKS LIKE NOT ONLY DO YOU HAVE AN SHIRKEY PROBLEM BUT LOOKS LIKE YOU HAVE ARE A MR. SPEAKER PROBLEM IF YOU HAVE 63 VOTES DO YOU HAVE A REPUBLICAN THAT CAN GO TO THE SPEAKER TO SAY RUN THIS PUPPY?

.

>> WE ARE WORKING ON IT.

AGAIN CALL ME A CRAZY DREAMER WAS WE DID NOT HAVE 63 WHEN WE FIRST INTRODUCED AND EVERYDAY I'M TALKING TO PEOPLE AND TRYING TO URGE THEM TO MOVE FORWARD ON THIS SO OF COURSE I'M ADVOCATING WITH THE SPEAKER WE MOVE FORWARD ON IT.

I'M TRYING TO GET OUR BILLS IN A HEARING AND COMMITTEE.

THERE ARE TECHNICAL PARTS OF THAT MAKING SURE THEY ALL GO TO THE SAME COMMITTEE.

SO WE ARE NOT GIVING UP ON DOING REAL DISCLOSURE.

BUT AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU KNOW A LOT OF MY COLLEAGUES ARE UNDERSTAND THIS AND SO IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT THE OPTICS HERE ARE GOING TO MAKE ALL OF US LOOK BAD WHEN THE MAJORITY OF US UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF NOT LYING, OF DOING REAL DISCLOSURE TO THE PEOPLE.

>> SO WHY DON'T YOU MAKE A MOTION ON THE FLOOR TO DISCHARGE A COMMITTEE AND MOVE ON THIS THING?

>> MAYBE YOU NEED TO BE MY LEGISLATIVE DIRECTOR I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY.

I APPRECIATE THE COUNSEL AND MAYBE YOU CAN GIVE THAT ADVICE TO ME AFTERWARDS BUT I'M DOING EVERYTHING I CAN AND OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS.

FOR ME PART OF THE ISSUE HERE IS PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS AND SO I'M REALLY GLAD WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT'S SUBTLE RIGHT AND ALSO NO DISRESPECT TO YOUR TALKING ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S TRAVEL BUT THAT'S A TABLOID STORY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY WHETHER SHE TRAVELED OR NOT SHE IS NOT A SUPER SPREADER.

IT SOUNDS JUICY AND EXCITING TO GET IN THE GOVERNOR'S LIKE PERSONAL TRAVEL HABITS BUT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IS SOMETHING THAT IS FOUNDATIONAL TO HAVING A HEALTHY DEMOCRACY IN THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.

I MEAN THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT STUFF.

SO I'M REALLY GLAD WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

>> ALL RIGHT WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION IN OVER TIME BUT JONATHAN IF YOU HAVE A QUICK QUESTION WE CAN TAKE IT UP TO CLOSING CREDITS GO AHEAD, PLEASE.

>> SURE REPRESENTATIVE, PULL BACK ONE SECOND WHY IS PERSONAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE IMPORTANT FOR LAWMAKERS FOR SOMEBODY LIKE YOURSELF?

>> MAJORITY OF VOTERS THINK I GO TO LANSING TO SELF ENRICH, IF YOU ASK HOW IT GETS A LITTLE UNCLEAR, RIGHT?

SO HOW CAN I PROVE TO THE VOTERS THAT I'M NOT REALLY SELF DEALING, THAT I'M NOT CUTTING SECRET DEALS?

NOW HOW WOULD ITSELF DO THAT IF I WERE DOING IT I WOULD PROPOSE LEGISLATION WHICH MADE ME RICHER BECAUSE OF THE THINGS THAT I OWN.

SO FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE IS A WAY OF IDENTIFYING MY POTENTIAL CONFLICTS.

SO FOR EXAMPLE IF I OWN COMMERCIAL REAL ESTATE WHICH I DO AND IF I WENT AROUND LANSING PUSHING TO LOWER TAXES ON REAL ESTATE THAT WOULD BE A CONFLICT OF INTEREST AND SELF DEALING BUT VOTERS WOULDN'T NECESSARILY KNOW THAT BECAUSE I DID NOT PUT OUT THERE I OWN COMMERCIAL PROPERTY THAT IS BORING AND NOBODY WILL VOTE FOR ME BECAUSE OF THAT BUT PEOPLE HAVE TO HAVE THE INFORMATION WHEN THEY WATCH MY BEHAVIOR.

>> REPRESENTATIVE WE ARE GOING TO ASK THE PEOPLE ON COMING BACK FOR AN OVER TIME SESSION WITH YOU AFTER WE LOOK AT THE CLOSING CREDITS GO TO WKAR.ORG FOR MORE INFORMATION WITH REPRESENTATIVE LA GRAND.

PRODUCTION OF OFF THE RECORD IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING, BUSINESS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN ROAD TO TOP TEN.COM.

FOR MORE OFF THE RECORD VISIT WKAR.ORG MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF OFF THE RECORD WITH TIM SKUBICK.

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