Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson is in the studio ready to talk politics.

Our lead story, Mike Duggan running for governor, but not as a Democrat.

Around the table, Chad Livengood, Lauren Gibbons and Joey Cappelletti sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in par by Bellwether public relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome back to Off the Record.

Well, quite a Newsweek this week wouldn't we say.

Mike Duggan, thank you for helping us have a lead story running for governor as an independent.

Really, this is a dramatic change in the complexion of the governor's race, is it not?

Absolutely.

I was very surprised when I heard that Duggan is running as an independent and so were a ton of other folks in this town.

They, of course, knew Mr. Dugga was going to run for governor, but chucking his deep Democratic roots to run as an independent.

Everybody was blindsided.

Traditionally, in Michigan, independent candidates never win, but sometimes they suck away enough vote from the major party candidates, which often determines the winner.

That's how Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton in Michigan in 2016.

Now, Mr. Porn is not predicting that will happen here, but he thinks Mr. Duggan might attract enough Democratic votes for governor to hand the election over to the Republicans.

I would think Democrats would be concerned because he has the potential of peeling off probably the largest concentration of Democrati votes in the state, almost like a prescription for getting a Republican elected.

This Democratic consultant believes there is a huge pool of voters for him to harvest, which he did as a write i candidate years ago for mayor.

He's certainly going to have more money than anyone else.

He currently dominates the state's largest media market.

About 50% of Michigan's population lives in that media market.

Meanwhile, this Republican consultant contends Mr. Duggan does it all.

There's not much better of a political mastermind for getting things done than Mike Duggan.

He's not only the candidate, he's the campaign manager.

He's the general consultant.

He's all those things.

So when you add all this up, on a scale of 1 to 10, Mr. Duggan comes in at an eight, according to Mr. Porn.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

All right.

So what did you make of this story?

It is fascinating.

It was surprising to see an independent run, but it seems as though there's an interesting political strategy behind it.

Right.

Democrats are going to be well, Democrats are coming off a not great election year.

Duggan is setting himself apart, doesn't have to engage in a potential primary battle with other Democrats and is also clearly trying to appea to some moderate conservatives as well, who may have watched the recent growth in Detroit and some of the gains that he's made and may be interested in voting for someone not as Democrat, but as an independent.

So I am very curious to see where this goes and how it ultimately impacts things.

Do you think he had polling data that said this can be done?

Mike Duggan doesn't make a lot of decisions about data in general.

He is a pretty shrewd operator when it comes to decision making.

And anyone who's ever worked for him will tell you he is pretty demanding and for looking for results.

Yeah, we've seen pollin that shows that Duggan has good name I.D.

in the suburbs of Detroit.

He's been, you know, on their on their television sets for 11 years now, as mayor, four years as the Wayne County prosecutor, a couple of years as the smart bus director, and another dozen years or so as Ed McNamara was number two in Wayne County.

He is yes, he's straigh out of the Ed McNamara machine, and he's built his own little machine in Detroit.

But he also has a lot of of of fans essentially out in Macomb County.

And in in wealthy suburbs of Oakland County.

And so he has a fundraising base over and over all of his reelections.

80, 90% of his money has come from outside of city Detroit.

He obviously has a few billionaires that are really he's really friendly with.

Nobody picked up Mr. Ford, starting with Bill Ford Jr and also Dan Gilbert.

And in the Ilitch's there, there's a lot of people that owe Mike Duggan some favors from over the years for favorable treatment at City hall.

And he's got to have he's got, you know, the capital.

He can he can he can cash in.

He also has had a lot of friendly relation with Republicans over the years.

One of my most strangest moments ever in covering politics in the state.

I at Mike Duggan's 2017 primary victory over Coleman Young and I got a tap on my shoulder and I turn around and it's Lee Chatfield, the speaker pro tem at the time before he was House speaker and it's at the St Regis Hotel.

I said, What are you doing here?

And he said, Oh, Mayor Duggan invited me down here to come hang out.

That's the kind of politician Mike Duggan is.

And even though Chatfield is not exactly someone Mike Duggan might be hanging out with these days, nonetheless, he was really very tellin about the way Duggan operates.

I think going off of that a little bit, you know, Duggan has a name recognition, obviously in Detroit, the suburbs, but outside of that, I think partially what he's betting on is that, you know, what transcends, you know, Democrat or Republican in front of his name is mayor of Detroit.

And across the state of Michigan, I think when they look at Detroit, most Michiganders are really, you know, proud of what has happened in Detroit.

You know, even things like the Lions, you know, people are just proud of what has happened in Detroit.

And Duggan is really the face of that.

And so, you know even if you're in Grand Rapids, you know, Traverse City, Marquette might not know the nam Mike Duggan, you know, the title mayor of Detroit does this cause the Democrats to lose the governorship?

Don't think it's a done deal there.

I mean, it depends on who the nominee is.

And we'll get probably into that.

If they put up a Trumper or if the Republicans put up a Trumper and the Democrats put up a liberal Democrat, Is that good or bad news for Mr. Duggan?

It's going to be an interesting split.

I don't know.

It's really hard, but there are sure there are things to overcome.

I mean, look, the straight ticket voting is 65% of the votes cast in Wayne County in the last governor' race were for straight ticket.

Most people don't know you can actually go fill i some extra bubbles down the line and then the rest of your vote defers to this, too, He has to do an education program.

Yes, but this is a candidate who has actually done some education programs.

He won a write in for mayor in a primary in 2013 because he got knocked off the ballot.

Remember, he moved from Livonia and then he he turned his petitions in two weeks too early.

And and they use it as a technicality got him booted off the ballot.

They thought they kind of had, you know, stop this.

They killed the king.

To stop this, you know, hospital executive from Livonia from becoming mayor.

And then he ran this write in candidate campaign and people wrote in like Doogin in and Doggin and and some people just wrote in the white guy and he won.

This thing was improbable.

So, yeah, he has he has the capability to try to coordinate that kind of campaign.

And I do think it will be a really interesting tes of some of the political apathy we have seen in the last couple of election cycles, particularl this one where a lot of voters were really frustrated wit the fact that they were having until Harris was on the ballot, just picking from between two people they didn't really like very much.

So it's fascinating to see this movement by Duggan towards an independent role, trying to break free from some of the problems that have plagued both parties.

Are is there a ton to overcome?

Yes, but I'm very curious to see what happens here.

Quickly, You know, I think right now the Democratic, you know, name is obviously, you know, coming off of losing the state house, coming of of losing the presidential here.

But we're still two years away from this election as, as we know, midterms.

You know, the party that' not in power often does better.

And I think, you know, midterm elections often is more affluent, college educated voters.

And so I think the Democratic Party, you know, in two years from now, might be in a lot better position to win some of these races.

And, you know, that who knows?

You know, he can run independent right now.

He could always, you know, change his mind in the future as well.

But what are they going to sell to voters?

I think that's the big question, both Democrats and Republicans, what are they going to sell to voters?

What is going to be the message?

You know, they're not going to build a fallback.

Democrats can't fall back to abortion right unless there are some, you know, major movement nationally or, you know, there is a congressional band or something that obviously Trump and th Republicans said they won't do.

There's going to be, you know, an issue that just right on the surface strikes.

I mean, and Duggan is going to come i and just with the whole record of, look, I did Detroit, did you like the NFL draft?

It was really great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you came down from Menominee.

So, you know, you had a good time.

Even though your Packers fan can vote for me that's going to be a big message that Duggan is going to try to make.

One of the first names that went through my mind after I read this story when he was talking about how the R's and D's have alienated all the voters and we need to be governing for the people.

You know what name I thought of?

Mark Hackel.

Mark Hackel is is looking at and is considering becoming an independent candidate for governor, not saying that he's going to do it.

He has not made the decision.

His camp is not talkin about this for obvious reasons, but he's definitely taking a look at it, which really compounds the problem even more.

Does it mean you're looking like you're not believing this?

I well, the Hackel part of it maybe.

I think I'm a little bit the independent campaign.

I mean didn't we in some aspects just see in the presidential a moderate campaign we saw Kamala Harris campaigning with Liz Cheney, this idea of, you know, transcending party and across party lines that maybe is one take away.

I think another take away though, is look at young voters.

They shifted incredibly far right.

I don't know if a moderate, independent campaign is something that's going to energize, fire up young voters.

I think you could see, you know, candidate going further left on the side that that's what energizes those voters.

Yeah, I think I think the youth is a good question.

And also there's a lot to be said about some of the party support around the state.

You have the infrastructure.

You don't have to go through alternate means.

Obviously, as Chad mentioned, Duggan has a history of being a good fundraiser but there are a lot of benefits to being in one party or the other here in the US.

So it's there's there's a lot of risks that are being taken by running an independent.

You can pretty much set your clock to Mark Hackel threatening to run fo governor and he never does it.

I mean, let's let's just kind of be serious here.

This is thi is not really going to happen.

He says it he he will he will say it before Mackinaw conference.

Go ahead and put your on you calendar.

It's going to happen.

But you know, the one you know if there's if there is someone who is like the sort of sherif candidate out there, it's it's Chris Swanson, the Genesee County sheriff, who has got, you know, essentially kind of the mayo of Genesee County.

Essentially.

Now, he's got a big political following in his county.

And and he obviously got he got some nice stage time of Democratic National Convention.

He was in uniform, which was a highly unusual and and so yeah, he got he's getting some some of some thought and attention here and so if he gets int a Democratic primary you know he he will pull that kind of mavericky vote that that Hackel talks about, you know, pulling.

We never really actually, you know, go through with it.

Well, as the political earth in this town was moving on the Duggan announcement, it moved even more when Governor Whitmer met with Matt Hall, the incoming speaker of the House.

Wow.

And they were talking about roads.

I mean, coming back to roads yet again.

Damn curse.

Yeah, Well, and it's also a very difficult political problem that has plagued lawmakers on both sides of the aisle.

Why is this significant that the two of them met?

Well, because, you know, if if they're meeting, that means that she's working towards something potentially either in 2025 or even these talks are percolating in these last couple of weeks of the legislature here.

She recognizes that Republicans are coming into power in the Hous and a lot of a lot of the road deals have fallen apar along partizan lines or even non partizan lines before it because it's a really complicated topic.

But in terms of, you know, what happens, Hall has put out a roads plan.

She's talking to him about it.

Is the governor for one minute going to give up money that she wants to give to corporations to create jobs, to fix roads.

That's the question.

Yeah, I guess we'll see.

I mean, I think.

Your like the Lions last night you're not punting.

Exactly.

I you know, I think this is a little bit just setting up what's gonna happen in 2025.

They're going to have to talk.

I remain a little skeptical of, you know, how much is really going to happen during the lame duck.

But I think one way or another those conversations are going to have to happen.

Chad.

She needs to have a good working relationship with Matt Hall.

She doesn't want she doesn't want this to go the way of Granholm-Bishop.

And we're last I remember on election night, Governor Granholm saw me backstage.

She said to me, we won the house.

And I thought to myself, Ooh, careful what you wish for, right?

Andy Dillon was not a helper so that doesn't mean anything.

Yeah, that was a struggle, to say the least.

So and Andy Dillon was speaker, and and so when.

But Mike Bishop, the Republican Senate majorit leader, and Democratic Governor Jennifer Granholm, they fought, you know, religiously.

And and it was, you know, get a deal done now get a deal as soon as you can for sure, because the political capital and the timing is going to go downhill pretty soon.

Speaking of timing.

Time to call in Jocelyn Benson, please.

All right, here we go.

Best of us.

Madam Secretary, welcome to the program.

Two quick questions.

Can you promise that you're not going to ru for governor as an independent?

You know, I'm a Democrat.

I'm a proud member of the Democratic Party because we're the party of the Voting Rights Act for the part that does the courageous thing, even when it's har and make sure that we fight for fairness, opportunity, freedom for everyone.

So I've been proud to be a member of the Democratic Party.

And look, right now it's it's clear we need to ensure members o the Democratic Party are leaders throughout the state, everywhere, are listening to the residents of the state.

And so for me, it's important that in moments like this, we don't flee from the party, but we say and fix it.

So if you're not going to run as an independent, is it true that the chances are greater than 50% that you'll run for governor as a Democrat?

Well, I'm certainly considering it, that's no secret.

But at the same time, in this moment in lame duck right, coming off of an election where the winners of that election have not yet been even sworn into office, I'm taking this time to go around the state of Michigan and talk to people.

How are you feeling after this election?

What are you concerned about?

What can we do better to make your lives easier?

And in the conversation I've already had in that realm, in these communities around the aroun the state, it's been very clear that people are feeling a lot of anxiety.

There's a lot of uncertainty out there.

People want to know the government's going to be on their side.

It's going to listen to them, responsive to them, accountable to them.

And I'll be in Grand Rapids, Marquette, Traverse City.

Do you want the job?

I love my job.

I love serving the people of Michigan.

That's what everybody says.

But I was on here 15 years ago telling you how much I loved the secretary of state's office.

My my commitment has always been the state.

You can't run again for secretary of state.

You must be doing it for a reason, because, you know, I've got two years in this office.

I'm a leader in the Democratic Party in this state and nationwide and I'm consistently on the side of making sure every voice is heard in the state.

It's why we've seen such record turnout over these last several years on both sides of the aisle.

So my my focus right no is making sure that people feel heard, that they kno their government works for them.

And that's what my focus has been throughout my time as secretary of state.

Secretary Benson, what is the significance of having one of Detroit's most prominent Democrats flee from the party?

Is it, to use your terminology, what's the significance of that for the party moving forward?

I think for me, the importance is in this moment, Democrats who are committed to those values of fairness, of equality, of making sure everyone has fai opportunity, and that we fight to protect people in the workplace, to protect our kids in schools, that in this moment we work to fix and address the issues that perhaps have come up in the party, unify the party behind those values that brought us to the table and ensure we continue to show to the people of Michigan we're the party that's on the side of the people.

We're the party that shows up every day to ensure that people's voices are heard.

And in this moment, you know, I don't back away from hard fights.

I lean in and do the hard work that is necessary to rectify issues and make things better.

And that's why I'm proud to continue to be doing that work as a member of the party.

Do you think you could have beaten Mike Duggan in a Democratic primary for governor?

I think the data speaks for itself and there's been a lot of chatter about that.

My focus is on making sure though, that our office is run well and that people know everywhere in the state, whether they're Republican, Democrat or independent, that's when you want government to work for you.

You can look to our office and see that it does.

Why do you think he's fleeing the Democratic Party?

That's a question for him, not for me, in my view.

Again, I'm proud to be a member of the party that does a courageous thing that takes on the hard fight and that doesn't back down from standing on behalf of the people.

Any Democrat that ra for the 26 gubernatorial would you know, in the general would likely have to win over some Trump voters.

A lot of those voter do not trust elections right now as the state's top elections official, What do you you know how could you win the support?

You know, hypothetically, if you ran, how could you win the support of those voters?

You know when I go into my branch offices in the department all across the state, I don't ask people who they voted for.

I ask people, how can I help them?

How can we make sur we're saving your time and money and getting you on your way?

How can we make sure government is working better for you?

And one of the things I'm most proud of, in fact, is this happened yesterday and this happens oftentimes people will come up to me.

Someone came up to me, an older gentleman in the grocery store yesterday and said, you know, I voted for Trump and I voted for you because you have transforme that secretary of state office and made it easier for my kids to get their driver's licenses, for me to sell my car and do a title transfer.

And that's really what I'm most proud of.

And so in this moment, yes, the people of Michigan, no matter what party or any party they affiliate with, they deserve to have their voices heard.

They deserve to be front and center in the decisions of every decision maker and leader in this state right now.

I've been that leader throughout the time my time as secretary of state.

I'm going to continue to be that leader for the people of Michigan.

And my hope is that will continue to see, as we've see at these last few cycles, people from both sides of the aisle reflect that, support that and continue to want that from your Republican critics would say, yes, you've been a leader, but you've also been a mini legislature.

You've been going around the legislature.

The courts even found you guilty of unilaterally making movements that you shouldn't make guilty.

No, I'm an executive who's worked with the Administrative Procedures Act where necessary and tried to do didn't.

Well well, it's important to note that in moments and I think the case you're referring to is about back during the COVID pandemic, when we had to make executive decisions to ensure in a moment where there was a high, high scrutinized election, the 2020 election coming forward, that we had to make decisions to ensure that every voice was hear and everyone could vote safely in that election.

And we successfully did that.

And we're the court has said, hey, look, you need to go through the Administrative Procedures Act, which is the case you're talking about before you mak executive decisions like that.

We did that and then sending out absentee ballot forms to everybody was not part of that.

But it was somethin that the court ultimately found was within the purview of my authority as secretary of state, and reinforce that.

And and the citizens responded as well.

It's because we were abl to educate citizens about their right to vote from hom in the 2020 election that we saw so many people take advantage of that right.

And vote in higher numbers than ever before in that election so that the proof speaks for itself.

The results speak for themselves.

And I'll always work with anyone to make sure we're getting things done for the people of Michigan.

And that's exactly what we did in that case.

I think, you know, yo focus really the last four years on trying to regain trust in elections, you know, transparency, all of these things.

But I'm wondering, you know, do you really feel like it has resonated?

Because when you look at polls, you know, after the 2020 election, before the 2024 election, I think it's still, you know, 70% of Republicans do not trust elections.

So, you know, do you feel like when you're when you're talking to these people I know you have anecdotal things like that, but is it actually breaking through and actually gaining the trust back?

Yeah, You know look at what we just came from the highest turnout election in our state's history where Republicans voted, Independents voted, Democrats voted in record breaking high numbers that is the proof to me that people believe in the process, that people have confidence that when they vote and they cast their ballot, their voice is going to be heard.

And my job is going to be to say enough, as it has been to anyon spreading deceptive information or misinformation about why they should have faith in our elections and make sure that every voter in this state can have that right.

We place faith in our democracy, and we've done that successfully.

We just did that in this election.

You wouldn't have see such high turnout if we hadn't.

What kind of progress have you made with fellow Democrats in the legislature convincing them that they need to open up their 501c4s or 527 groups to be subject to the same campaign finance law as their campaign accounts and their PACs?

I believe strongly that we can't have an informed and engaged citizenry if we're not giving people access to information about what's happening behind the scenes in Lansing when decisions are made on their behalf every day.

And that's why government transparency is so important to me.

It's fundamental to a lot of the work I've done as Secretary of State, and I've worked with legislators to bring the bright act forward, which among other things, would ensure we closed a lot of the loopholes and address a lot of the lack of transparency issues that we're seeing right now in this in this city.

But at the same time, I'm, you know, proud supporter also of the Freedom of Information Act, which I'm hopeful will also get through the legislature during lame duck.

I think Senator Jeremy Moss has done a great job leading the way on that, along with Senator Ed McBroom and my office has been proud to not just work with them to expand the Freedom of Information Act, but also comply with it.

One of the things we've done, as you know, is create a portal for theFOIA requests we get into our office so that everyone can see every request we get and have access to that information.

I think every state agenc should have a portal like that, and that's the type of changes that I hope we can se moving forward.

In conversations following the 2024 election, in your mind, what would a Democrati candidate for governor and down ballo Democrats need to do to reverse some of the losses that your party saw?

Well, first, I think it's important to see to actually recognize holisticall what happened in this election.

We saw one more people vote than ever before.

A lot of new voters, a lot of young voters.

We saw the election of several women running as Democrats.

Elissa Slotkin, of course, for the Senate.

We saw two women elected running as independents, but but running as on the nonpartisan part of the ticket and serving as Democrats Kyra Harris Boldin and Kim Thomas.

We saw Hillary Scholten, we sa Kristi McDonald Rivet elected.

So there were a lot of successes, a lot of things to be to be proud of.

At the same time, it's very clear that the people, many of people in Michigan are not feeling heard right now by their leaders.

And that's what I think this party, our party, every leader needs to start doing better, listening to people, responding to people, showing that government can work well for them no matter where they live or who they vote for.

That's been my commitment as secretary of State, and I'm going to continue to work with our party to make sure that as we save people time and money, as we fight to make sure they're safe in the workplace and safe in their i their kids are safe in schools, that people know about that and can understand the work that we do every day t show up for them.

As a citizen, what are you concerned if you have any concerns about the cabinet that Mr. Trump is putting together?

Well, I think it's important to me why is it that everyone I'm to tell you why.

It's important to me that everyone who is leading in our government is someone that people can trust is going to work for them every day.

And I think there are a lot of people who who have whose names have been brought forward who who people can't trust.

And that's what you're seeing come out right now.

And to me what the message of 2024 was is we want to be heard as citizens and we want to be able to trust our leaders to make right good decisions on our behalf.

And to the extent we're seeing nominees who may not align with that, I see I think it's the first departure potentially of what someone might have said they were going to do.

And what they're actually doing now that they're in office.

Does it scare you?

I am concerned, but I also believe in the process and the checks and balances that the legislature will bring to the table.

So I think let's see how the Senate process plays out.

I don't think the Senate's going to cave to Mr. Trump.

We've seen no evidence of that such far.

So far, we've seen senators actually asking tough questions, being willing to push back and that's one of the stories that I think we're going to see more of in the months ahead.

Your game to stay for an overtime?

Yeah, always.

Let's do that right after we do closed credits, go to WKAR.org for more Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson.

See you on the other side.

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Learn more at bellwetherpr.com for more off the record, visit wkar.org Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of off the record.