>>> NOW WE TURN TO LESSONS IN >>> NOW WE TURN TO LESSONS IN CIVILITY WITH OUR NEXT GUEST, CIVILITY WITH OUR NEXT GUEST, ERIC LU.

ERIC LU.

CEO AND FOUNDER OF THE NONPROFIT CIVIC ORGANIZATION SAID WE NEED CIVIC SATURDAYS, A NONRELIGIOUS RITUAL OF COMING TOGETHER TO CELEBRATE AMERICA.

HE TOLD OUR MICHEL MARTIN WHY HE BELIEVES WE'RE IN A MOMENT OF MORAL AWAKENING.

>> ERIC, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

>> I'M SO GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR LATEST BOOK, WHICH IS "BECOME AMERICA" BUT REALLY WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS A CALL FOR A MOVEMENT, FOR A CIVIC RELIGION.

WHAT IS A CIVIC RELIGION AND WHY DO WE NEED IT?

>> A CIVIC RELIGION IS SIMPLY AN IDEA THAT IN OUR LIVES AS CITIZENS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE SO LITTLE TO HOLD US TOGETHER.

WE'RE NOT OF A COMMON BLOOD LINE.

WE'RE NOT OF A COMMON FAITH TRADITION.

WE COME, OUR ANCESTORS COME FROM ALL OVER THE PLACE.

THE THING THAT BINDS US TOGETHER SIMPLY IS A CREED, A SET OF IDEAS AND PROMISES.

SOME ARE WRITTEN IN PARCHMENT IN OUR FOUNDING AND FOUNDATIONAL DOCUMENTS, BUT OTHERS ARE FROM OTHER PARTS OF OUR HISTORY.

WHEN I TALK ABOUT THE IDEA OF CIVIC RELIGION, IT IS REMINDING US IN THE FIRST PLACE THERE IS A FOUNDATIONAL CREED THAT DOESN'T JUST EXECUTE ITSELF.

WE HAVE TO REMIND OURSELVES OF IT.

WE HAVE TO COMMIT TO DEEDS AND ACTIONS THAT ACTUALLY GIVE IT LIFE.

WE DO THAT NOT JUST IN RANDOM, ONE-OFF MOMENTS BUT STRUCTURE OF RITUAL.

YOU HAVE TO COME TOGETHER IN A REGULAR WAY TO REMIND YOURSELVES WHAT THIS THING IS WE INHERITED BY SIMPLY BEING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND WHAT WE'RE CALLED TO ACTUALLY HOLD UP AND SUSTAIN.

>> YOU MEAN PEOPLE SHOULD REALLY GET TOGETHER, THEY SHOULD CELEBRATE THE COUNTRY, THEY SHOULD GET TOGETHER ON A REGULAR BASIS, THEY SHOULD READ THINGS THAT ARE INSPIRING.

YOU REALLY MEAN THAT?

>> I REALLY MEAN IT.

MY NOTION OF CIVIC RELIGION, OF COURSE, IS NOT WORSHIPPING A DEITY BUT BELIEVING IN DEMOCRACY AND BELIEVING IN EACH OTHER IN OUR CAPACITY ACTUALLY TO LIVE UP TO THE PROMISES OF DEMOCRACY.

I THINK DEMOCRACY WORKS ONLY WHEN ENOUGH OF US BELIEVE DEMOCRACY WORKS.

AND THAT IS A FRAGILE THING.

IT'S KIND OF A GAMBLE AND KIND OF A MIRACLE WHEN IT WORKS AND WHEN IT STARTS TO CORRODE OWE -- OR EVAPORATE, YOU REALIZE HOW EFFERVESCENT IT IS.

>> HOW DID YOU GROW UP WITH THIS IDEA?

DID YOU GROW UP GOING TO CHURCH AND SAYING THIS TRANSLATES TO THAT?

>> INTERESTINGLY, I GREW UP WITH NO FAITH TRADITION AT ALL.

I WAS NOT RAISED IN ANY PARTICULAR TRADITION.

I THINK ALL HUMANS ARE WIRED FOR BELIEF AND BELONGING IN SOMETHING.

I HAD THAT WIRING ESPECIALLY STRONGLY.

SO I'M THE SON OF IMMIGRANTS.

MY PARENTS CAME TO THE U.S.

VIA CHINA AND TAIWAN.

WHEN I WAS GROWING UP IN UPSTATE NEW YORK, I HAD THIS VERY STRONG SENSE THE WAY I WANTED TO CHANNEL THAT SPIRIT OF BELIEF AND BELONGING WAS INTO THE IDEA OF THIS COUNTRY, THE PROMISE OF THIS COUNTRY.

TO BE CLEAR, I DIDN'T COME ONE THIS IDEA OF CIVIC RELIGION.

THIS IS AT LEAST AS OLD AS ALEXIS TAUPEFIELD, WHEN HE CAME TO THE UNITED STATES IN THE 1930s AND NOTICED THE MIRACLE HE OBSERVED WITH PEOPLE, OF WHITE MEN GOVERNING THEMSELVES AT THAT TIME, WAS THIS MUTUAL BELIEF IF THEY SHOWED UP FOR EACH OTHER, THEY COULD MAKE THE THING WORK.

>> BUT YOU HAVE A VERY SPECIFIC PROPOSAL IN THIS BOOK, WHICH IS CALLED "BECOME AMERICA."

YOU THINK WE SHOULD GET TOGETHER ON A SATURDAY, CALL IT CIVIC SATURDAYS, AND DO STUFF.

>> YEAH.

LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THAT.

I CO-FOUNDED THIS ORGANIZATION CALLED CITIZEN UNIVERSITY.

WE DO WORK ALL AROUND THE UNITED STATES TO SPREAD THE BELIEF THAT A STRONG DEMOCRACY REQUIRES STRONG CITIZENS.

ONE OF OUR SIGNATURE PROGRAMS YOU JUST REFERRED TO IS CALLED CIVIC SATURDAYS.

THESE ARE GATHERINGS THAT ARE A CIVIC ANALOG TO FAITH GATHERING.

IT'S NOT ABOUT CHURCH OR MOSQUE OR SYNAGOGUE OR RELIGION BUT IT IS ABOUT THIS NOTION OF AMERICAN CIVIC RELIGION.

THE GATHERING FOLLOWS THE ARC OF A FAITH GATHERING.

WE SING TOGETHER.

WE'LL TURN TO THE STRANGERS NEXT TO US AND TALK ABOUT A COMMON PROMPT, A QUESTION LIKE WHO DO YOU BELONG TO?

WHO DO YOU FEEL RESPONSIBLE FOR?

SOMETHING THAT CRACKS OPEN THE HEART RIGHT FROM THE GET-GO WITH MAYBE SOMEBODY YOU JUST MET, INVITES YOU TO BE ON A DIFFERENT PLAIN THAN I'M LOOKING AT MY PHONE AND HAVE MY ARMOR ON BECAUSE I'M LIVING IN THE CITY.

AFTER THAT THERE ARE READINGS OF TEXTS YOU MIGHT THINK OF AS CIVIC SCRIPTURE, TEXT FROM THE AMERICAN TRADITIONS.

WHETHER IT'S FAMOUS LININGS THAT I CAN THE PREAMBLE OR THE INSTITUTION OR I HAVE A DREAM SPEECH OR LESS WELL-KNOWN TEXT.

AND FROM THOSE READINGS OF SCRIPTURE WHAT FOLLOWS IS A SERMON TO MAKE SENSE OF THE MOMENT WE'RE IN, TO TIE THE MORAL CHOICES OF ETHICAL CONUNDRUMS OF LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW BACK TO OUR LIVES AND COMMUNITY.

>> AND SOME MIGHT WONDER AT THIS POINT WHAT QUALIFIES YOU FOR THIS.

>> YES.

WELL, WHAT QUALIFIES ME IS WHAT QUALIFIES YOU, WHICH IS THAT WE HAVE THE DUMB LUCK TO BE HERE RIGHT NOW.

WE HAVE THE DUMB LUCK TO BE THE STEWARDS OF THIS EXPERIMENT THAT GOT HANDED TO US.

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR DOCUMENTATION STATUS IS.

WHEN I SAY CITIZENSHIP AND CITIZEN UNIVERSITY, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT PAPERS OR PASSPORT VERSION OF CITIZENSHIP.

MINE THIS BITTER, ETHICAL SENSE OF BEING A MEMBER OF THE BODY.

WHAT QUALIFIES ME OR YOU OR ANY OTHER MEMBER OF THE BODY WHO DECIDES TO SHOW UP AND DECIDES YOU KNOW WHAT, THERE'S NO SUCH THING AT THE END OF THE DAY AS SOMEONE ELSE'S PROGRAM.

I'M KIND OF RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HEALTH OR LACK OF HEALTH FOR THE BODY POLITIC.

SO I LOOK AROUND AND I FEEL LIKE PEOPLE ARE HUNGERING FOR BELONGING, HUNGERING FOR AN EDUCATION TO HAVE A DIFFERENT WAY OF DEALING WITH EACH OTHER THAN YOU SEE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, NO ONE ELSE IS DOING IT, THEN I HAVE TO RAISE MY HAND AND DO IT.

THAT'S HOW WE STARTED THESE.

WE STARTED THEM IN SEATTLE IN 2016, WHICH IS WHERE OUR HEADQUARTERS IS.

WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE GREAT IF 20, 30 PEOPLE SHOWED UP.

THE FIRST ONE 200 PEOPLE CRAMMED THIS BASEMENT READING IN A STORE BECAUSE, AGAIN, WE DON'T GET INTERVIEWED OR PERMISSION TO ENGAGE WITH EACH OTHER FACE TO FACE IN A LOCALLY ROOTED WAY TO MAKE MORAL SENSE OF OUR TIMES.

>> YOU SAID SOMETHING IMPORTANT THERE, BUT YOU SAID 2016.

FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, LET'S JUST SAY FOR A LOT OF PROGRESSIVES BUT NOT JUST PROGRESSIVES BUT ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE SEEN IS A LOT OF COMMITTED CONSERVATIVES WHO ARE DEEPLY TROUBLED BY WHAT THEY SEE THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY, THE TONE OF OUR DISCOURSE.

BUT YOU LIVE IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST, SEATTLE.

I ASSUME A LOT OF PROGRESSIVES SHOWED UP.

OBVIOUSLY FOR SOME PEOPLE 2016 WAS A TERRIBLE CRISIS.

THEY FEEL DONALD TRUMP IS LIKE THEIR WORST NIGHTMARE OF SOMEONE WHO SHOULD NOT BE IN LEADERSHIP.

BUT FOR OTHER PEOPLE, THIS IS A GREAT MOMENT, A GREAT MOMENT WHERE THEY FINALLY FELT HEARD AND SEEN.

WHAT IS YOUR ASK FOR THE PEOPLE WHO THINK WHAT, FINALLY, SOMEBODY IN THERE GOING TO GET THE JOB DONE IN THE WAY I WANT IT DONE.

>> YOU TALK TO ANYBODY WHO IS A FAN OF THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, AND I HAVE THEM IN MY FAMILY, IF YOU ASK THEM HOW THEY LIKE THE PRESIDENT THEY WILL SAY THEY THINK HE'S DOING A GREAT JOB.

IF YOU ASK HIM WHAT'S THE STATE OF THE UNION IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD?

ARE THERE PROBLEMS WITH OPIOIDS?

ARE THERE PROBLEMS WITH SUICIDE?

ARE THERE PROBLEMS WITH JOBS DISAPPEARING?

ARE THERE PROBLEMS OF PEOPLE NOT KNOWING OR TRUSTING THEIR NEIGHBORS?

DO YOU FEEL LIKE THE QUALITY OF LIFE WHERE YOU LIVE HAS GOTTEN WORSE?

DO YOU FEEL LIKE PEOPLE'S SENSE OF DEHUMANIZING EACH OTHER HAS GOTTEN WORSE?

THEY'LL SAY YES JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU'RE LEFT OR RIGHT.

THE CRISIS I'M ADDRESSING IS NOT THE CRISIS OF ONE PERSON GETTING ELECTED TO THE WHITE HOUSE.

THOUGH IN HIS OWN WAY HE IS ERODING, IN MY VIEW, DEMOCRATIC NORMS IN A LOT OF THE HABITS THAT ARE REQUIRED TO SUSTAIN OR -- OUR REPUBLIC.

BUT THIS BOOK, OUR WORK, CIVIC SATURDAYS, THIS WHOLE APPROACH TO GATHERING PEOPLE IN INVITATION THIS WAY IS MEANT FOR ALL.

>> IF PEOPLE CAN'T GO TO CIVIC SATURDAYS, IT JUST ISN'T THEIR THING, SOME PEOPLE ARE NOT GOOD IN GROUPS, WHAT SHOULD THEY DO TO ADVANCE THE GOALS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?

>> FIRST THING I REALLY WOULD SAY IS JOIN A CLUB OR MAKE A CLUB.

EVEN IF YOU'RE AN INTROVERT.

EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE BIG CROWDS OR WHATEVER, ANY CIRCLE OF PEOPLE THAT'S MORE THAN ONE, THREE, TWO, 10, 20.

AND THE CLUB DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO BE POLITICAL OR CIVIC.

IT CAN BE A GARDENING CLUB, NEIGHBORHOOD CLUB, BOOK CLUB.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE GARDEN CLUB.

WHAT'S GOOD ABOUT THAT?

HOW DOES THAT HELP THINGS?

GARDENING CLUB -- >> YOU GET TOMATOES.

>> YOU GET TOMATOES.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU'RE DOING LITERALLY WHAT IS METAPHORICALLY THE WORK OF CITIZENSHIP WHICH IS WEED, SEED AND FEED AND TEND THE GARDEN.

THE GARDEN OF OUR DEMOCRACY DOES NOT TEND ITSELF.

THE SYSTEM OF COMMUNITY AND CIVIC LIFE, SYSTEM OF OUR MARKETPLACE, THEY'RE NOT SELF-REGULATING MACHINES, THEY'RE GARDENS.

ONCE YOU LET WEEDS TAKE HOLD AND YOU SIT BACK AND WATCH WITH A LAISSEZ-FAIRE APPROACH, THE WEEDS WILL TAKE OVER.

>> BUT THE POINT IS TELL ME HOW JOINING ANYTHING, CHESS, ANYTHING, BECAUSE -- >> BECAUSE JOINING A CLUB IS ABOUT RE-EXERCISING THAT MUSCLE OF ASSOCIATION.

COMING TOGETHER WITH A GROUP OF FOLKS WHO MAY NOT BE THAT CLOSE TO YOU YET, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT COMMON GOALS, COMMON AGENDA, COMMON INTERESTS, COMMON WAYS TO FIGURE OUT WHEN YOU DISAGREE HOW TO DEAL WITH STUFF.

WE TALKED TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THESE WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS, THESE YOUNG PEOPLE, THEY SAY THAT'S WHY THEY LIKED IT.

>> YES, AND WHY DO THEY GO THERE IS THIS.

>> BECAUSE THEY FELT A SENSE OF BLOJDS AND THEY THOUGHT IT WAS EXCITING.

>> AND IT GAVE THEM AN IDENTITY.

IT MADE THEM SEEM AND FEEL HEARD, RECOGNIZED, POWERFUL.

AND SO TO ME, I LOOK AT THAT, I LOOK AT THE APPEAL OF WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS TO CERTAIN YOUNG PEOPLE NOT AS AN ARGUMENT AGAINST CLUBS AND AGAINST ASSOCIATIONS BUT AS AN ARGUMENT FOR FAR MORE AND BETTER CHOICES AND ALTERNATIVES OF ASSOCIATIONS AND CLUBS SO THAT IF YOU'RE A YOUNG PERSON WHO FEELS LOST AND ADRIFT AND FEELS DISSED BY SOCIETY AND YOU THINK THE ONE PLACE I CAN FEEL STRONG AGAIN IS IN A WHITE POWER GROUP, THEN THAT'S A FAILURE OF ALL OF US.

WHY WEREN'T THERE FIVE OTHER CHANNELS AT THE Y, AT THE SCHOOL, IN THE LIBRARY, IN THE SPORTS TEAM WHERE THAT YOUNG PERSON COULD HAVE PLUGGED IN, IN A MULTI RACIAL, MULTI FAITH, MULTI OTHER DIMENSION GROUP AND REALIZED I CAN FIND VOICE AND MEANING AND BELONGING AND POWER THERE, RIGHT?

234R50UR FAILURE IS NOT A PROMISE GROUP.

THEY'RE DOING WHAT GROUPS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO.

>> WHAT INFORMS YOUR IDEA THAT THIS KIND OF PERSONAL, FACE-TO-FACE PARTICIPATION IS THE ANTIDOTE TO ALL OF THIS CORROSION AND CORRUPTION OF A RELATIONSHIP THAT YOU SEE?

THE REASON I ASK IS THAT IF PEOPLE FEEL THESE REALLY BIG FORCES ARE SHAPING OUR ENVIRONMENT, LIKE, YOU KNOW, NOT POINTING THE FINGER AT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR, BUT TECH COMPANIES.

PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THESE ARE THE FORCES SHAPING OUR CULTURE, WOULDN'T IT MAKE MORE SENSE TO FOCUS ON REGULATING OR ADDRESSING THEM?

>> I GOT TO ANSWERS TWO THAT.

THE FIRST ONE IS WE'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO WALK AND CHEW GUM AT THE SAME TIME.

SO IT IS TRUE FACEBOOK, SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES, TWITTER, YOUTUBE, THEY NEED MORE REGULATION.

I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE LEGISLATIVE ACTION AND POLICY ACTION TO ADDRESS THEM BUT AT THE SAME TIME REMEMBER, HOW DOES FACEBOOK GET SO POWERFUL?

HOW DOES TWITTER GET TO -- SO POWERFUL?

BECAUSE YOU AND I GIVE THEM OUR ATTENTION.

YOU AND I GIVE THEM OUR EYEBALLS.

YOU AND I GIVE THEM OUR SCREEN TIME.

IF YOU WANT TO CURB FACEBOOK'S POWER, CONVINCE YOURSELF AND THOSE AROUND YOU AND THOSE AROUND THOSE AROUND YOU TO STOP GIVING AWAY YOUR POWER AND YOUR ATTENTION THAT WAY AND THAT WILL BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, I DO THINK FACE TO FACE IS ULTIMATELY THE WAY WE'RE GOING TO REKINDLE THE RENEWAL OF DEMOCRATIC LIFE, AND THE REASON WHY IS I THINK THE THINGS THAT YOU AND I ARE DISCUSSING HERE ARE ABOUT VALUES, THEY'RE ABOUT NORMS, THEY'RE ABOUT SPIRIT, THEY'RE ABOUT THE HEART AND WHETHER YOUR HEART IS OPEN OR CLOSED AND YOUR CAPACITY FOR EMPATHY OR FOR IMAGINATION TO SEE YOURSELF IN SOMEONE ELSE'S SHOES.

AND THESE THINGS IN MY VIEW, ARE UPSTREAM OF POLICY.

THE SPIRIT IS UPSTREAM OF POLICY.

VALUES AND THIS KIND OF CIVIC FAITH IS UPSTREAM OF LAW AND ELECTIONS.

THE SOUL IS UPSTREAM OF THE STATE.

YES, WE CAN AT OTHER TIMES AND OTHERS AMONG US CAN FOCUS A LOT ON POLICY, LAW, ELECTIONS, AND THE STATE.

WE MUST.

I'M NOT SAYING GIVE THAT UP.

BUT IN THE END YOU CANNOT DURABLY UNPOLLUTE WHAT'S DOWN THERE UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY CLEAN OUT WHAT'S UP HERE, WHAT'S UPSTREAM.

THAT IS OUR ATTITUDES AND THE WAY WE SEE EACH OTHER.

THE THING THAT YOU SAID EARLIER WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT THE CURRENT PRESIDENT AND YOU'RE SAYING A LOT OF THEM DID THAT BECAUSE THEY FELT SEEN AND HEARD, RIGHT, THAT IS A UNIVERSAL HUMAN DESIRE TO BE SEEN AND HEARD AND RECOGNIZED AS FULLY HUMAN.

WE LIVE IN A DEHUMANIZING TIME SO IT'S BY SETTING TOGETHER A IN THE COMPANY OF OTHERS TO ACTUALLY SEE EACH OTHER.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE LIKE EACH THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE AGREE WITH EACH OTHER.

BUT IT MEANS BE GROWN-UPS WITH EACH OTHER AND OUR SCREENS GIVE US TOO MANY REASONS TO BE NOT GROWN-UPS, TO BE TODDLERS WITH EACH OTHER, TO BEHAVE IN FORCED WAYS OF IMPUNITY AND FACE TO FACE IS THE WAY WE HAVE TO.

>> WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO DO RIGHT NOW?

I TAKE IT THE FIRST THING YOU WOULD SAY IS STOP UNFRIENDING PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH THEM?

I DON'T WANT TO ANTICIPATE WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY.

THE REASON I RAISE THAT YOU REMEMBER IN THE WAKE OF THE 2016 ELECTION, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE LIKE, I JUST CAN'T DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE ANYMORE.

EVEN IN MY OWN FAMILY.

AND NOT FOR REASONS THAT WERE TERRIBLE, JUST BECAUSE I FOUND YOUR DISCOURSE HORRIBLE.

I THINK THAT YOU ARE ENDORSING RACISM OR SEXISM.

YOU WANT ME TO GIVE ALL OF THESE PEOPLE A BIG HUG WHO HATE ME AND WANT TO KILL ME?

>> I THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO EMPATHIZE AND HUMANIZE WITH ANOTHER PERSON EVEN WHEN THEY'RE WRONG.

EVEN WHEN THEIR BEHAVIORS ARE EVIL, EVEN WHEN THEY LOOK TO YOU TO BE EVIL, I FOUNDATIONALLY BELIEVE THAT.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE GOT TO DO BEFORE YOU PROJECT THIS ON TO HOW YOU'RE GOING TO HANDLE THAT GUY, THAT PERSON, IS IT ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION, WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO DO, I WANT PEOPLE TO BEGIN BY ASKING THEMSELVES, YOU KNOW, THE CIVIC GOLDEN RULE.

LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

AS A PERSON WHO'S NOT A FAN OF THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION, I HAVE BEEN ALARMED AT THE EXTENT TO WHICH PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS USED EXECUTIVE ORDERS, EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY TO BYPASS CONGRESS TO GO AGAINST THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, WHAT HAVE YOU, BUT AS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT TO ME, I WAS NOT EVEN REMOTELY ALARMED WHEN HIS PREDECESSOR, PRESIDENT OBAMA, USED EXACTLY THE SAME POWERS FOR ENDS THAT I LIKED.

AND UPON REFLECTION, I THINK THE FIRST THING WE'VE GOT TO DO AS CITIZENS IS ASK OURSELVES ARE WE WILLING TO HOLD OURSELVES TO THE STANDARDS WE WISH TO HOLD OTHERS TO?

IF NOT, THE FIRST TASK IS ACTUALLY TO SIT WITH THAT AND ASK WHY NOT?

IS IT BECAUSE I LOVE MY RIGHTEOUSNESS?

IS IT BECAUSE IN THE END I'M JUST AS NILISTICLY COMMITTED TO POWER AND WINNING AS THE OTHER SIDE IS AND I WILL JUST AS CONVENIENTLY DRESS UP MY DESIRE FOR POWER IN MORAL LANGUAGE?

THEN YOU GOT TO FACE YOURSELF BECAUSE IF THAT'S THE CASE, WELL, THAT'S A RECIPE FOR THE POLITICS WE HAVE NOW.

>> I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING BUT I'M TRYING TO FIND A WAY TO SAY THIS THAT ISN'T SO FLAMBOYANT.

UNILATERAL DISARMAMENT, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE ASKING FOR?

YOU'RE ASKING FOR THE NICE PEOPLE TO BE NICE AND LET THE NOT NICE PEOPLE RUN OVER THEM?

IT CAN FEEL THAT WAY.

>> IT CAN FEEL THAT WAY.

I THINK THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT THING.

I AM ASKING PEOPLE TO RECOGNIZE THAT IT CAN FEEL THAT WAY AND IT'S NOT THAT WAY.

IT FEELS LIKE BEING A SUCKER.

IT FEELS LIKE UNILATERAL DISARMAMENT.

TO SAY I'M TRYING TO EMPATHIZE WITH THE OTHER PERSON OR TRYING TO REALIZE THE WAYS I'M BEING A HYPOCRITE WHEN I CRITICIZE THEM FOR DOING X BUT I WAS HAPPY WITH X A FEW YEARS BACK UNDER OBAMA, IS NOT THEREFORE TO FORGIVE THEM.

YOU CAN STILL DISLIKE THE THING THEY'RE ADVOCATING.

YOU CAN STILL MOBILIZE WITH ALL OF YOUR MIGHT AND ACTIVATE EVERY OUNCE OF CIVIC POWER YOU CAN MUSTER TO DEFEAT THAT OTHER GUY OR THAT OTHER SIDE.

YOU OUGHT TO.

I DO IN MY LIFE AS A CITIZEN, YOU CAN BE IN THE FIGHT.

BUT TO ME ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE GOT TO RECOGNIZE IS THAT THE SUBTITLE OF THIS BOOK IS CIVIC SERMONS ON LOVE, RESPONSIBILITY AND DEMOCRACY.

RESPONSIBILITY WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HERE.

BUT LOVE, LIKE I GUESS THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS, DO YOU BELIEVE LOVE IS FOR SUCKERS?

IF YOU BELIEVE LOVE IS FOR SUCKERS, THEN YEAH, YOU KNOW, MAYBE YOU DON'T LIKE ANYTHING I'M SAYING.

IF YOU BELIEVE LOVE IS FOR SUCKERS, EVEN IF YOU THINK YOU OPPOSE DONALD TRUMP, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY FUELING AND FEEDING HIS RISE IF YOU BELIEVE LOVE IS FOR SUCKERS.

I BELIEVE THIS NOTION OF CIVIC LOVE, THIS BROADER NOTION OF CIVIC RELIGION, IT DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO BE A SAINT.

IT DOES NOT REQUIRE YOU TO BE AN ALTRUIST.

IT JUST REQUIRES YOU TO RECOGNIZE WE ARE PART OF A STORY BIGGER THAN OURSELVES AND TRUE SELF-INTEREST IS NOT JUST ABOUT ME AND MY SIDE IN THIS MOMENT GETTING WHAT I CAN.

IT'S NOT RECOGNIZING THAT TRUE SELF-INTEREST IS MUTUAL INTEREST AND WE'RE ALL BETTER OFF WHEN WE'RE ALL BETTER OFF.

IS THERE EVIL IN THE WORLD?

SURE.

AS DARK AS THINGS MAY SEEM SOMETIMES IN OUR POLITICS, I DO BELIEVE WE'RE NOT DONE YET.

>> ERIC, THANK YOU, IT IT'S BEEN GREAT TO TALK TO YOU.