A busy Newsweek in our town.

And you're now part of it as we have Governor Gretchen Whitmer one on one to talk about her state of the state and other issues.

So sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in par by Bellwether Public Relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com.

And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Here we go.

We're in studio C. This has been a busy week.

We'v all earned our keep this week.

Have we not guys?

Yeah.

And what is sleep?

Yeah.

There you go.

It' nice to have you folks on board.

Post State of the State.

Thats what this show is for.

And we're off.

We've already done the analysis of the speech, so let's talk about the speaker's property tax thing.

When you heard that story first blush, what did you think Mr.

Mauger?

You know, I'm a details person, I like reading.

How do you make a plan work?

What?

What is what are who is this going to impact?

Who's going to bear the brunt of this in the details aren't there.

You know, so it's very hard I think, for even Democrats in the legislature or, Halls, you know, Republican Party to even know how to respond to this because the details arent there.

Well from 30,000ft.

Your reaction was?

I mean, it's an interesting idea coming from a Republican leader to throw out something where he says it's going to impact the wealthiest people in the state of Michigan to provide a property tax cu for everyone else in the state.

The issue is, again, what are the details?

How do you get $4 billion in sales tax revenu from just the wealthiest people in the state?

It's going to have a broader impact than that.

The governor said it was remarkable, not the proposal, but the fact that the Republican speaker, yes, proposed a tax increase in the year.

I was I was shocked.

In fact, I turned to Ric when I first saw it and I said, we like, is it April Fool's Day?

What is going on?

I was really surprised.

I mean, look, we sort of knew something was happening because last week Hall basically was like this is how we're going to, you know we're going to figure out a way to make up for the fact that we're basically he wants to just completely cut property taxes.

He has to find money to keep the schools and local governments semi whole.

So this increase, on services luxury services, $4.7 billion.

But again, I think the first thing was shock.

And then the second was like, wait a second, are we back in 2007 and does no one remember how that happened?

I mean, that was part of like a democratic idea of Jennifer Granholm to do a service tax.

It was panned.

Nobody liked it.

Republicans.

They passed it.

Becaus they needed to figure out a way.

But then, yeah, they repealed it.

so I don't know.

I was just really surprised.

One.

Leave it to Matt Hall to steal the spotlight, at least for a few minutes.

As the governor, the da before, the state of the state.

Two, I mean, it's interesting because, you know, there is a political context here, which is we've got a Republican here who's saying, soak the rich and think about this.

But he did not use those words, okay?

He didn't say soak the rich.

When you, when you say a super luxury tax.

Just a second When youre saying country clubs and Marina memberships you're basically saying that.

He did not even use the word rich okay?

Okay.

It was use the words luxury.

Yes.

Okay.

So families that have higher income.

Okay but I digress.

Boy did you digress.

I'm getting even.

So you've got a Republican basically saying we're going to soak the rich and we'r heading into an election year.

So when Democrats are talking about, you know, are pushing back against, you know, the whole super elitism kind of thing, you know, Matt Hall gets to go, hey, you know, remember me?

You know, Mr.

Luxury Tax.

And don't forget he has talked about this in the context not just of a legislative proposal, but as a ballot proposal.

There's no he's not doing anything on the ballot.

No, he is not.

We're talking about propert taxes possibly being a question on the ballot, bu from somebody else, but not him.

He's.

He is.

No.

No.

He told me we're not going to do the ballot proposal.

I concluded that was a nonstarter.

And we're going to do it in the legislature.

Okay.

I got it on tape, guys.

Okay.

Honest, trust me.

Wait a minute, Im a journalist, why would you trust me?

But at the same time, it still puts the issue out there in the context of Republicans being the the party of populism.

And if Democrat are going to argue against it, then it's like, you know so you're going to be friendly to the super wealthy.

But that's why the details matter here.

I'm going to keep coming back to this.

He has a problem with the base of his party, the Republican Party as a whole does.

Their base wants all property tax gone, or they want all income tax gone, which is a ten, you know, tens of billions of dollars, something that's going to be something dramatic.

Substantive.

Matt Hall knows he's got to do something on this.

So what kind of plan does he throw out?

Hey, we're going to get rid of all these property taxes and then we're going t replace it with something else.

And he is saying hey, it's these luxury services.

If you talk to people who have studied this, and a lot of Democrats have looked at this because they've wanted to d something similar in the past, they've wanted to say, hey, how can we tax services that rich people use and try t lower taxes for everyone else?

The problem has been, according to them, that you can only get about $300 million in revenue from taxing service that rich people primarily use.

There's so many expensive things they can do.

But 300 million and 4 from.

How much, you know, private, you know, private airplane rides?

Yeah.

300 million.

What the Democrats say they've looked at before.

I've heard this from multiple Democrats, and 4.7 billion is what Matt Hall is saying.

What is going on?

I mean, those aren't even the same city.

Ball Park Yeah.

People with long memories will remember the late 80s in the 1990s when property taxes were a huge issue.

And so is the disparity in, per pupil funding between wealthy and poor districts.

And there were I you remember this that there were plans bein just thrown out right and left and doing exactly what you'r talking about, Craig, which is, you know, you put it down and it's a half cent increase in the, sales tax plus this much income tax relief, property tax, blah, blah, blah.

And everybody is running the numbers and saying this works.

This doesn't.

Until finally, you know they basically flung two things up against the wall and gave voters a choice.

I think what I'm really trying to figure out is, are we spending a lot of time on something that just simply is not going to happen in an election year?

I mean, in the end, in the end, you know, Craig's point, absolutely, that something needs to or that there is a want to be done about property taxes.

But are we really talking about in the year 2026 when we had a late budget and Matt Hall still saying we're not even going to get a budget done on time, I wouldn't promise that on Wednesday night to us, or, you know, Michigan or his caucus or lawmakers or Democrats.

is this actuall something that we think can be some sort of grand bargain that can be figured out in an election year?

And that is what I'm still really trying to understand, I think feels like they're just tied to each other is a tentative squishy.

Yes.

Okay I would not rule it out.

Okay.

As you're about to see when we get to the governor.

It bugs me to agree with you.

It scares me.

okay.

We're going to hear from the governor, but she said, look, I'm willing to look at any genuine proposal.

And she pointed out, as you did, I need to see the details.

Okay I got a devil's in the details, but she didn't close the door.

She didn't say this is a nonstarter.

She said the speaker and I have a good working relationship.

I'm not going to say anything incendiary about it.

And let's see where the details are and see where we go.

So at this early read, dismiss it at your own peril.

Im not dismissing it.

But I will say that again.

I just think thi what we have seen this past year with, with the two caucuses working together with the governor, that it hasn't been all unicorns and birthdays, but it's not supposed to be.

That's fair, that's fair.

But do they really want to do this, particularly in an incendiary session in terms of the dialog?

But they got the thing done and they've got a road plan.

And she turned to the speaker.

They got the thing done days late.

they did get a roads plan.

They did.

And she talked about it for a tentative number of months last year.

Yeah, we don't care about that.

We know.

I mean, you can point to.

Right.

Like, I mean, it was I mean, what got done between, you know, June and October.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, here's the good new for all the lobbyists in town.

They have a full time job now because these guys and ladies in the lobby corner killed that Jennifer Granholm sales tax.

Am I right or wrong?

Well you know, the joke about when.

Although you didn't have to work too hard to do it.

When we got the when the list came out of wha was and wasn't on the services, and then it was like looking at who actually you're right.

Well, I ate bronze shoes, remember?

I remember you talking on NPR about big tanning beds, you know.

Yeah it was tanning services.

Yeah.

I mean, the the lobby here has been looking for stuff to work on because there have been so few law moving through the legislature and getting signed by the governor.

And it's been bad times for them for a while now because it's been so slow in Lansing.

This I think a lot of them.

And I've received text message from some of them, noting that newspapers are among the things Matt Hall has identified.

And, you know, they're already out there.

Ads for political ads, right?

There are they're already fishing out there, I think, for clients on some of these things.

So, I mean, you're going to se Lansing, maybe get more active.

Is there some you know, we know Hall and Whitmer like compromises.

They throw out different plans.

They reach a deal.

Is there already some type of path forward on this where you do some service and maybe you get a property tax cut that's not as big as halls floating, but it's something down the middle.

I'm not ruling out a possibility like that.

And don't forget you know, all the machinations to create a wedge motion, a a wedge moment to, you know, force that of, remember, a huge tax cut for taxpayers in an election year is something that both parties can take home and seize.

What a good boy and girl I am.

Here's what I did for you, and I tax the rich in order to do it.

What's wrong with that message?

No, it's going to be part of the genius of it.

It's setting up to be a really fascinating year.

On top of what we know is an election yea unlike any other than we've seen in years.

Speaking of fascinating.

Let's listen to Governor Whitmer.

Governor.

First of all, I thank you for giving us this time.

We appreciate that very much.

Let's assume for the moment that you are not Governor Gretchen Whitmer.

That your TV commentator, Gretchen Whitmer.

Give me a pithy 30 second analysis of that speech last night.

Oh, it was half as long as the one the night before, and twice as good.

So what do.

So I don't know what's next.

Pithy, content wise.

It's just what someone said t me, and I thought it was funny.

Well, seriously.

Did you nail it last night?

I felt good about it.

You know, I felt like I was focused.

I mean, intentionally focused on what I think is possible this year.

You know, we got split governmen and we've got an election year.

It's a tough time politically, rhetorically speaking.

And I think it was, important to focus on some things that are possible.

Right?

It doesn't mean they all get done.

But if we can find some common ground around literacy, housing and health care, well, then that's a damn good deal for the people of Michigan.

And that's why I wanted to focus on what I thought was possible, not just lay down things that are aspirational or divisive, but to really, I think, drill down on some things that that can be done.

So.

Yeah, I felt pretty good about it.

So now you're going to take this gig down the road.

Why?

I love hitting the road, Tim.

You know me.

I'm not.

I don't love the pomp and circumstance of a state of the state.

I don't love to give a long speech.

What I love is to engage with Michiganders and to sit down and have a cup of coffee with someone and ask them the question I always do, which is, you know, what can I d that will make your life better?

Tell me what's going on with you.

And did you know about these things that we were able to get don in these last couple of years, or this that's available to you and your family?

So I'm going to be hitting the road.

The GSD tour and listening and and sharing the you know, what we've what we've gotten accomplished in helping people connect to opportunity.

So when you're on the road, what do you say to those people who still in their hearts believe that you're running for president, when indeed you are not?

You know, I just listen and I continue to ask my questions and stay focused.

Well, when I don't thin that answered my question, okay.

When they ask you that, you tell them what?

I tell them I'm not here as a candidate for anything.

I'm here as your governor, who really cares about you.

Who really wants to spend every minute I'm in office focusing on things that make your life better.

Let's talk about Mr.

Hall's property tax cut plan.

Are there any elements of that plan that you're willing to sign off on today?

You know what I mean?

There's not a plan has not been introduced.

He gave a press conference.

He's made some statements, but there's not a whole lot to analyze yet and what it really means.

So I'm one that believes if an idea is genuine, put it on the table.

Let's see what's possible.

You know, I put a plan on the table to give people some, some ta relief that I know we can budget that we can make all the numbers balanced and that we can still, you know, fund the things that are really important to people in Michigan.

I don't know about his yet.

There's still a lot of questions, but I' I will have that conversation.

But you and I both know, Tim, that we've seen other, leaders push policies like this through one.

It's it's easy to talk about them, and you can see some of the wisdom in it.

It's a lot harder to get something, you know, this big done.

I mean to have a speaker of the House put up, you know, about $5 billion and in different taxes o the table is kind of remarkable.

So I'd like to see where he wants to go with it.

Well, can you see yourself in any way, shape or form supporting a luxury tax, expanding the 6% sales tax on the rich?

You know what, Tim?

When Jennifer Granholm was governor, she pushed, similar situation through.

And I voted for it at the time.

So it all depends on what's really in it and and whether or not it balance with the budget Well, you voted.

You voted for it.

Go ahead.

And if you can put the votes together.

Those are big unanswered questions.

And we still don't even have a paper that tells you exactly what's all in o not in what he's talking about.

Here's the tough question.

You voted for it, but then did you vote to repeal it when the pressure from all the lobbyists descended on the Capitol?

Oh yeah, I voted for it.

You know, Governor Granholm, I think, made a different, decision and changed everything.

But, none of it was easy.

I can tell you that much.

And that was, you know, quite a while ago when, it was easier to get some thing done in Lansing, so we'll see.

So I'm going to report tonight that you are open to Speaker Hall's $5 billion property tax cut proposal.

Waiting for the details.

Fair?

I think you can put it on that.

Whitmer welcomes all genuine ideas that are balanced to the table for conversation.

Do you find it interesting that he rejected out of hand all of the tax increases you had in your new budget, and now he comes to town with his own tax increase?

Did that strike you was unusual, madam?

I think it's unusual fo a Republican leader to do that.

Yeah, I was all.

You know, it's it's interesting.

You never know what, what calculation does g into those types of decisions.

But, I'd like to see where it goes and certainly like to see if his fellow Republicans are on board with that big tax, too.

But you're going t you're not going to get a bunch.

Do you think?

I mean, if history's, an indicator, I would suspect not, but we'll see.

Matt Hall has brought some surprises before he put that tax up on the board for, part of our road fix.

And so I give him credit for that.

We'll see what happens.

Do you believe for one moment there is $5 billion worth of waste, fraud and abuse in your budget?

No.

Is that just made up out of whole cloth?

You know, it's the same talking point.

You know, I don't get worked up over the way that they talk about the budget.

It's predictable.

This is kind of what always happens.

And it's not reflective of what's going on.

And, you know, the rhetori coming out of Washington, D.C., none of it is anything that makes me rethink the priorities that we've set, the hard decisions that we've had to make.

You know, the paying down of $28 billion of state debt, the increased credit ratin we have, I mean, we've written and enacted good budgets a high rainy day fund balance.

I mean, we we've been good stewards of the state taxpayer dime and will continue to be so long as I'm governor.

So if it's not 5 billion, what is the number if there is one?

I mean, Tim in any organization, even WKARs or Gretchen Whitmer's household, there's probably some efficiencies to be had.

But, no, I think that those talking points that, you know, there's this rampant, huge ticket items that can be cu without the people of Michigan paying a price for it, or it's just, you know, it's kind of politics today.

I don't I don't pu a whole lot of stock in that on.

And are there ghost employees in your administration?

I, you know, there are a lot of hardworking state employees in the state of Michigan.

And I got to tell you, I highlighted two last night, the DNR conservation officer and the township Grand Blanc Township office who showed up after a shooting.

You know, there are some wonderful, state employees who work really hard every single day.

And I'm grateful to count myself among them for the next ten months.

So are there employees that are not employees?

That money has been allocated for?

No.

So Mr.

Hall is he seems to be in in an alternate parallel world?

Well, you know, that's okay.

I mean, we come, we have different vantage points.

I'm not going to say anything incendiary.

We've built a pretty decent working relationship.

I expect the opposing party to throw their best at me.

And, we'll have some tough debates and ultimately tough negotiations.

And the end of the day, we got to find common ground for the people of Michigan.

So I don't take anything personally.

I think it's important that we stay focused on what's possible and that's where my head's at.

Is not that kind of rhetoric, though, counterproductive.

It's just, it's something that takes your eye off the ball?

I don't take my eye off the ball, but I do think that we've got a short window of time.

We got a lot to accomplish.

I was very thoughtful in putting.

You know, certain items, three items.

Literacy, housing and health care on the table.

Because I know whether you're Republican, Democrat or independent or you haven't voted.

These are the fundamentals Michiganders need us to stay focus on.

If we focus on them, I think we can do a lot of good for the people of Michigan.

And we got a short window because we know they're going to all want to hit the hit the campaign trail and start campaigning.

But we got to get this budget done and on time this year.

So I assume at some point the critics vis-a-vi your literacy are going to say, why did it take you seven years to discover phonics?

Oh, man.

we've been working on this the whole time.

Every actually every administration has been working on this.

We as a nation are falling behind.

Michigan is is not unique.

In fact, we are 44th and fourth grade ratings.

It's unacceptable.

So one of the things I thin that's been a real problem here is we've changed our tactics every couple of years.

We're all impatient.

I'm impatient.

I want the best for my kids, and I want it now.

And I know that's how all Michigan parents feel and how legislators feel.

But changing the strateg every couple years, having 400 different methods of teaching literacy does not work.

So science of reading, which is what they did in, in Mississippi.

and they committed to it long term.

That was turn it around.

We changed the law.

We're on the path.

Now we got to commit to seein it through and wrapping our kids and teachers with the supports they need to be successful doing it.

And that's really wha I was talking about last night.

But why didn't you propose phonics seven years ago or five years ago?

And rather than go through these 400 different things that obviously did not work?

I think the Mississippi Miracle, as some people call it, it's really was the Mississippi Marathon.

I was being tested during much of that time.

And now we know tha they've had success doing that, that the all the things that we've been able to do these last few years.

So it's been a few years that we've been really changing how we want to teach literacy.

We know that we've got all the ingredients to be successful here.

We've got to commit to it, and we've got to wrap our kids and teachers with the force they need to be to be able to get it done.

You talked abou your relationship with Mr.

Hall.

We have not talked in quite a while about your relationship with the gentleman in the White House.

What is the status of that today?

Vis-a-vis, how many, how many phone calls have the two of you exchanged in the last year?

Oh, I don't know.

You know.

Guess at it.

Hell call once in a while.

I probably talked to him twice a month.

But you've called him personally, and he's called you back personally, correct?

Yes, And so, is the relationship cooled in the wake of what's going on now?

That wasn't a year ago.

Or is it about the same or is it better?

I think it's about the same.

You know, I mean, obviously we see the world very differentl and about 95 out of 100 things.

And, neither of us pulls punches.

But at the same token, if there's five things out of 100 I can find common ground with and and get some things done for Michigan, then I'm going to take every one of those opportunities.

But, you know, I, I think that he's got a lot going on right now.

We don't agree on tariffs.

We don't agree on the ACA cuts.

We don't agree on how we treat people or or deploy, you know, troops within our states.

I mean, there's a lot of differences there.

And yet, I'm keeping the lines of communication open because Michigan needs the federal government sometimes, whether it's, you know, in the wake of an ice storm or it is for Selfridge.

that relationship has helped me deliver some important things for Michigan.

And I. I'm not one to, you know, take all the credit I wanted.

I gave him credit for that in the speech last night, because that's important.

How many feelers have you ha for somebody to come to work for you after you leave office?

I'm not entertaining any conversations like that.

Does that mean nobody's ever called you and said, look, and when you get out we got a nice cushy job for you?

You know, I, I, I have not entertained conversations like that.

I think people know that, I don't think that that's appropriate.

I am governor through the end of the year.

I don't want to do anything that would, could raise the, you know, any sort of a conflict.

But, so, no, I'm not I'm not having any of those conversations.

Could you see yourself as a TV commentator?

Why are you retiring, Tim?

Whoops, don't mention that word.

No, no.

R-words.

No, I am not.

But the question is still on the table.

You could do that, couldn't you?

I don't know.

Yeah, it might be fun.

We'll see.

I you know, I, I really don' know what I'm going to do next.

I know no one believes that it's been, you know, the last few months have been really hard personally.

And, you know, with my dad, and, and everything else going on.

And so, I think, you know, it'll b nice to just take a breath and, and think about it when I get a moment, but I haven't had that yet.

Would probably take 3 or 4 months off and just veg out?

We'll see.

I'm no good idle.

I gotta tell you, I get i trouble, you know, if I'm idle.

So I gotta have a plan.

But I'll start thinkin about that in the coming months.

Probably.

Did you find it interesting last night in the speech, I'm sure you recognize this.

As you said it, you announce that this was your last speech.

Tell the people that didn't see the speech.

What happened after you said that governor?

That was, everyone clapped.

Yes.

What did what what did you think when they started clapping?

Oh gosh.

You know, I know the Democrats were clapping because they we've gotten some amazing things done.

I'm sure some of the Republicans were clapping because, you know, they won't have me to kick around next year.

I don't care why they were clapping.

I delivered the speech I wanted to give.

And I think by in large people, recognize that it was focused on the people of Michigan and that's the most important thing.

So what was it like giving the last speech?

It felt good, you know, it was, you know, as I reflect on, you know, all the speeches I've given, but also all the state of the state that I sat through.

It was just kind of a moment of deep gratitude and, kind of amazing chance to take stock of what we've what we've accomplished.

Like it was really pretty remarkable.

And I remember sitting as a freshman legislator when John Engler was giving his second to last day the state.

And I sat through his last one and then all eight of Jennifer Granholm the first four of Rick Snyder's.

And then I was out of office, of course, for a few years.

And then now I've given my eighth like, it's.

A lot has happened, a lot has changed.

Some of it for the better some of it not for the better.

With the rhetoric in this country and the ugliness and and how people treat each other and social media, we've come a long way and, just to take it all in and was pretty amazing.

I just my, my kids were not there because one's in law school and the other's working, and my dad obviously was not there.

And my husband was home with the flu, but my brother and his girls were there, and a couple of wonderful friends who've been with me every step of the way were as well, and surrounded by all my, my team who I couldn't do any of this without.

It felt really good.

Governor, it's always great to talk to you.

Thanks, Tim.

You too.

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