- You know, one of the stories you and I have had fun with over the last year and a half, is this vice presidential stuff.

(Governor Whitmer chuckling) - Have we had fun with this, Tim?

I think we remember it differently.

- Tell me what it was like to be at the top of the Mackinaw Bridge?

- It's just breathtaking.

- [Announcer] "Off The Record" presents "Evening with the Governor," with Governor Gretchen Whitmer and first gentlemen, Dr. Marc Mallory.

Here's Senior Capitol Correspondent Tim Skubick.

- Governor Whitmer, thank you for this opportunity to meet with you here over the holidays, as we record on December the 22nd, nice to see you again.

- Good to see you, Tim, always.

- Sorry we can't be together in person, hey?

- I know.

I think every one of us had hoped by this time in this year, we would be, COVID would be in the rear view mirror, but obviously that's not the case, so I appreciate your flexibility in staying safe, for you and your family.

- Thank you, and likewise for you and your family.

Alright, let's do some quickie questions, okay?

Let's assume that after three months of negotiations with your beloved Republican legislature, they decided to do nada on gun issues.

Would you support a petition drive to put that on the ballot to let the people check in on that issue?

- I think the people are telling us that they want us to find some common ground, to keep our kids in school and keep them safe, not just for the kids, but all the families.

And, you know, as tough as these last two years have been, I can tell you that the last three weeks have been the hardest, personally, as I've been working to lend some support to the families that are reeling from this most devastating situation that we saw play out in Oxford.

And I think this uniquely American problem, we owe it to families in Oxford, families across the state to find some common ground where we can, and I will be an eager partner in that work.

- So if the legislature is stiff shoe on this, would you do a petition drive or support one?

- Well, I think the question is, what does the policy reflect, right?

I think that's where the work has to be done.

And so I don't want to predetermine where that line is.

I want to get to the table and have a genuine conversation about what we can do, and if that's not fruitful, then I certainly understand the desire for the people of Michigan to have the word on this, and that's something that I think we'll take a look at.

- So you would not rule out a petition drive on this issue?

- Listen, I'm not promoting one, I'm not ruling anything out.

I'm telling you right now as a parent, as a mom, as someone who's tried to support families who have gone through the most devastating loss, I believe we can do better and we owe it to our kids and families and citizens to try to do that.

- Right, so on the same issue, a petition drive, you're watching, I'm sure very closely, the US Supreme Court vis-a-vis Roe V Wade.

Let's assume that they take that thing apart pretty well or repeal it altogether, would you support a petition drive to let the people decide that in Michigan?

- Well, you know what?

I would love it if we had a legislature that would work with me to codify women's reproductive health rights into state law.

- [Tim] Not going to happen, Governor.

It's not going to happen.

- Yeah, I know that's not going to happen, right, in this environment, in this moment with this legislature, I know that's not likely.

If the Supreme Court overturns Roe, we will do everything we can to secure the right here, and that may include a petition drive, I can't speak to it.

I'm not spearheading that conversation, but it is one, as a woman, as a Michigander, as a state that has always valued this right, and as a mom of two young women, who I hope make their lives here in the state, their whole lives, something that's important to me on all those fronts.

- Are you ready to rebuild those field hospitals to deal with COVID?

- I'm hoping we don't have to.

Obviously the work that we have done to vaccinate people in Michigan has been so important.

We know that this omicron variant is incredibly contagious.

I was speaking with my former colleague, Judge Mekanicho, down in the 36th district court that, you know, he was sharing with me the incredible impact omicron's already had on their whole workforce and going virtual again.

This is a highly contagious variant, I think it's a matter of time before each of us has that positive test turn up.

The question is gonna be, have we done our job, to keep ourselves safe and get boosted?

And I have, but I'm gonna continue to try to get more people in our state boosted, that's the best way for us to alleviate the pressure on our hospitals and avoid having to build field hospitals.

So at this juncture, we are watching closely, we're having all the conversations with the Feds, and we're doing our darnedest to get everyone vaccinated and boosted.

- Did Ford give you a heads up that they were building those plants down south and ignoring Michigan?

- You know, we've had a lot of ongoing conversations with Ford.

I don't believe that there was, you know, a real conversation about whether or not they could do the same thing here in Michigan, and I think frankly, we as a state have been written off for a number of reasons, not just in this one instance, but because I think historically we've not had the same kind of economic development tools other states have.

Lansing is considered dysfunctional by some and that our process, frankly, moves too slow.

We have put, you know, all of that part of that narrative to bed.

We showed we can work together.

You know, I'm grateful for the Senate Majority Leader, the Speaker of the House, the democratic leaders, on both sides of the Capitol.

Now this really was a team effort.

The business community was incredibly important partners.

Quentin Messer at the MDC did a phenomenal job.

We have shown we can work together, we can move quickly, and we have now got another set of really sharp economic development tools, and I think it's gonna work to our benefit in short order.

- The question is still on the table.

Did they give you a heads up before the public announcement and say, Governor, this is coming?

What's the protocol at this level?

Weren't you at least owed that call, and you didn't get it, did you?

- We had a conversation, we did, and they said, you know, we're gonna be making this announcement, they've made a number of investment announcements in Michigan, nothing like what they announced that they were doing out of state.

I think that the lack of ready to go sites has really been a issue for us to overcome, and that's why this legislation I just signed into law was so important, but, you know, I don't want to re-litigate everything that happened prior to that.

I will say we've had ongoing conversations, and now I think Michigan is in a much stronger position to ensure that future investments happen here.

- Let's move on to something else, okay?

As you know, as part of the no fault plan, there's a 45% cut in services to the brain injury.

Will you propose a replacement of some of that money or all of that money?

- Well, yeah, I've been very clear with the legislature.

I'd love to see a fix.

I think that we've got to make sure that bills are being paid quickly and that we've got a sustainable payment for people that are providing these services.

It's something that's important.

That traffic claims fund has a lot of resources in it.

There still is a surplus, even after the $400 per vehicle that Michigan drivers are gonna be receiving.

That's great news.

We can still do better on behalf of those who have been injured, and that's something that I would to see.

I've been very clear that we need some legislation to do that, and I'm hopeful we can get something done.

- So you're hoping to take more money out of the trust fund surplus to restore some of those funds, am I hearing that correctly?

- I think what we need to do is have a better system of care for people who have been injured, and the initial figures just aren't sustainable in terms of meeting the needs of people who have been injured, particularly those who were injured before this new law went into effect.

So I do think that there is ample opportunity for us to do better by the industry that cares for people that have sustained these horrible injuries.

- And use the surplus to do that?

- We could, and certainly there's a big corpus in that fund, to ensure that we are paying for the types of, and high quality services that these catastrophically injured Michiganders require.

- Have you responded to Dr. Pamela Pew, who on three occasions now, has taken you to task on allegedly being playing politics, with the COVID decisions rather than science, one?

Are you familiar with her criticism to start out with?

- Oh, sure.

Yeah you know, I think in this moment, Tim, I have stayed laser focused in doing what I think to be the right thing to do is.

Now, if I looked at the political side of every issue, I think I would never have been able to make a single decision because there's detractors on all fronts, on every tough decision, and yet leadership means making the tough calls and doing what you think the right thing to do is, and in this environment, when you're damned if you do, and you're damned, if you don't, you better be able to live with yourself, and so I've made very difficult decisions.

I've put people at the center of the work that we do, and I know that there are always gonna be detractors, but I'm gonna stay focused on putting the people in Michigan first.

- Well, is it fair to say that, currently, your healthcare decisions are not based on the science, they are based on the harsh political reality that even if you ordered anything, most of the people, not most, but a lot of them would ignore it?

Is that a fair statement?

- So I think that it's not fair to say that they're not centered around the medicine.

And the fact of the matter is we're in a very different spot than we were at the beginning of the pandemic.

And I know that I've got allies on the left who want broad mandates.

I've got critics on the right, who no matter what I do, they will find fault with it.

Here's what I know.

We have tools now that we didn't have a year and a half ago.

We've got vaccines.

We know how incredibly effective masks are.

We have monoclonal antibodies that are available to keep people out of the hospital.

We now have a Pfizer pill that has been approved by the FDA today that will ramp up.

These tools were not available a year and a half ago, and that's why we had to use these broad powers.

At this juncture, you know, I know some are saying, what can you do?

Well, we can get more people vaccinated.

We can educate the public about boosters.

We can help parents get their questions about the safety and efficacy for their kids answered so that they get their kids vaccinated.

This has gotta be all of our effort to keep people out of the hospital and to stay safe.

That is the goal.

And we've got tools today that we didn't have before.

- But you have 20% of the people in Michigan, regardless of what you say, who are not going to do it, so the vaccine policy appears to be a built-in failure.

- Well, I think certainly as a nation, and frankly globally, there is a percentage of a population all across this globe that are impervious to the science around vaccines.

So what can we do?

Well, we can keep trying to educate, but I don't, you know, I don't believe that there's a mandate in the world that is going to change the behavior of a segment of our population, and that's why broad mandates that closed businesses or create hardship aren't gonna change the result, and the goal is to get people vaccinated and boosted.

And if there's a segment that'll never do it, it's hard to justify sweeping mandates that are gonna have other downsides to them.

- Governor, earlier this year, you produced for the court a witness impact statement in the wake of that horrendous story, and one of quotes that you had there, "for me, things will never be the same."

How have they changed?

- Well, you know, Tim, I really debated whether or not to even do a victim impact statement.

Certainly the plot to kidnap me and take me to Wisconsin and put me on a trial and execute me, shook the whole nation, frankly.

And I got to tell you as that the individual that was the target of it, it has changed how I engage, how I think about public engagements.

You know, when you see some of the details, and I haven't read everything, I just can't go there frankly.

I've got a job to do and I got to stay focused.

And a lot of it is just really disturbing stuff.

You know, I've got to be able to conduct the work of the people of the state of Michigan, but as I'm out and about engaging with people, I'm scanning, I'm a little concerned about my safety.

Certainly a lot of the ugliness was directed at people that are part of my administration or part of my family, that's the stuff that gets me really angry.

And, you know, I know that in these jobs, people don't always agree with you.

Certainly we could never though expected that the dialogue in this country would devolve so quickly, that it would resort to physical threats of violence.

But we're seeing that whether it's school boards or it is public health leaders, and we cannot let this stand, I've been trying for years, frankly, to get the rhetoric, the heat of this rhetoric turned down, we've got to turn down the heat.

We need to be able to have debates and disagreements and move forward together, and I think this chapter has been so destructive and I'm worried about it, but I think that's the nature of my global concerns with regard to being a target of one of the most ugly chapters, I think in our state and maybe in our, you know, in our nation.

- How close did you come to not doing the witness statement?

- Well, I had to put a lot of thought into it and I didn't, you know, you're exposing your soft underbelly when you say what the impact is then.

And so I tried to keep it global and I tried to also focus that this particular defendant cooperated with the law enforcement, and I encourage the court to take that consideration as they, and show a little mercy on this particular defendant.

So I do think that people, some people get caught up in the rhetoric and get swept into it and make decisions and then ultimately regret it.

And when they do, when they learn, when they evolve, we should recognize that.

- I got to tell you, you mentioned the other day that you had a 90 minute visit with the President of the United States in the Oval Office all by your lonesome.

That's what you call FaceTime in the business, right?

- Well, yes, but it wasn't all by my lonesome.

If you took that away, that was, you know, perhaps a miscommunication on my part.

I was there with a number of other governors, and I think there were six or seven of us, but it was a pretty small group.

And we did have the opportunity to talk about a variety of issues, and it was certainly a first for me, but I was glad to have a chance to make the case on behalf of infrastructure and voting protections, among other issues we had the chance to touch on.

- You know, one of the stories you and I have had fun with over the last year and a half is this vice presidential stuff, okay?

Can we play one more game with you on this one?

Are you game?

(Governor Whitmer chuckling) - Have we had fun with this, Tim?

I think we remember it differently.

Sure.

- Okay.

Well, I'll speak for myself.

Alright, it's a fascinating story.

It's a fascinating story.

I was told that you were Joe Biden's first pick for vice president, is that true?

- I have no idea.

I have no idea.

- Oh, come on Governor, you haven't heard this?

And he wanted, wait a minute, he wanted- - I've heard lots of things.

- Well, I understand but he- - [Governor Whitmer] I've heard a lot of things, Tim.

- With all due respect, he wanted to have you on the ticket and because of a protest from certain segments of the electorate and the Democratic Party, he decided that he would not pick you.

- Listen, I can't speak to what was going on there.

All I can say is, you know, I was surprised when they asked me to go through the process, but I thought it was such an important election, you know, I would, if that's what he wanted, I would do it.

I was very pleased with his selection of a running mate.

I can tell you, my family was very relieved, you know, but this, I think, was such an important election, I, you know, I went through the process.

Now I told them from day one, if he has a partner and it's not me, I would be thrilled because it means we'll have two allies in Washington, DC.

This is the job that I want.

I've never actually wanted to go to Washington DC.

I've never wanted to leave the state that I love.

I'm a proud Michigander.

I've got three generations of my family here.

I had no interest in leaving, but I thought the election was so important for our nation that if there was a role that I needed to play, I would have done it, but I was glad the way that it turned out.

- Alright, you have a list of 10 things that are important in your life, and you made governor number eight, why number eight?

- So what you're talking about, you know for anyone who's watching this, I shared with you that I turned 50 this year and the morning of my birthday, I was drinking my coffee at five o'clock in the morning, like I do every day, and I sat down and made a gratitude list and I keep a gratitude journal.

I try to, at close of each day, writing three things that I'm really grateful for.

And some days it's my dogs, right?

Other days, there are great things I can put on the list, but I thought I'd write down the list all the things I'm grateful for, and of course now my family, my health, my dogs, you know, I went through this list, and number eight was, was that I'm the governor of Michigan.

I am grateful to be the governor of Michigan, but it's, the first and foremost things that center my life are my family, are my friends, are the things that I'll have had long before I had this job and will have long after, and I think that was a moment where I thought, okay, you know, as tough as some things can feel on occasion, I am really a very, very fortunate person, and I think that's always important to remember, especially in the tough times.

- Number eight says that you're just not wrapped up in this thing, hook line and sinker, being governor.

- You know, it has absolutely been the first and foremost thing that I've put my energy into for years, right?

For every year I've been in office, and certainly the two years I ran in hopes of getting elected to this office, and even on the hardest days, and there certainly have been a lot of those, this has been an unprecedented set of challenges no governor's ever had to confront, and we've had to confront them all at the same time.

But even on the hardest day, I still feel very fortunate to be the governor of this great state.

It is an honor, it is something for which I am incredibly grateful, but it's not the end all, be all of what defines me as a person.

It's my family, it's my friends, so many of the things that I have been able to count as blessings in my life.

- So what are the three good things that happened to you today?

- Well, talking to you is definitely on the list, Tim.

- What a set up, you ought to go into politics, Governor.

- I'm going to spend, we have a little Christmas gathering with my godson, who I've hardly seen for two years now, and so I'm really excited about that, that'll certainly be on the list then.

You know, I often will round up the day with Kevin and Doug, my Labradoodles.

- Beautiful.

Well, let's also round out the day by calling in the first gentlemen who has agreed, for the third consecutive year, to actually sit down and take some questions, shall we do that now?

- He's a brave soul.

Let's bring him in.

- We welcome back to the program with the governor, the first gentlemen, Dr. Marc, look at... You retired, you've been off the grid this year.

Where were you, man?

- Yeah, well, I retired and, you know, I've been kind of just taking it easy.

- Walk me through.

How did you decide that it was time to retire?

- Well, you know, there were a lot of reasons.

Basically, I've been in the business for 35 years and I wanted to leave at the top of my game, and I talked with Gretchen about it, talked with the rest of my family about it, and then I found that a great person to take it over, Dr. Priyanka Wattwe, and I thought, you know what?

I'm ready to move on.

- So what have you been doing?

- Well, I, you know, I'll never get bored in life.

I've got so many projects and so many interests.

You know, again, I've just been doing a lot of things.

You know, seeing old friends who I hadn't seen for a while, and I've been busy, but hanging out here more or less.

- He's been buying textbooks, and he reads them cover to cover.

What are you into right now?

- I'm into geology right now.

I just, you know, some of my happiest years were an undergrad before dentistry, and I kind of picked up science from that era.

And I don't know, I've been into rocks lately, oddly enough and I've just been keeping busy.

- So do you know the difference between shale and something else?

- Yeah.

Okay, so shale is a sedimentary rock- - There we go.

- From slate, that's metamorphic rock.

- Yeah, I had to ask you tonight.

- [Dr. Marc] There you go.

That's a great question.

- Well, good luck.

Have you taken a journalism book yet?

- No, not quite no.

I'm gonna probably, I'll leave that to you.

If I ever have any questions, I'm coming to you.

- Tim, you've probably written one, you should send one.

- Oh, I'll read that.

Yeah.

- Does he have 25 bucks?

- Oh yeah, I'll pony up the money.

You gotta give me an autograph.

- Yeah.

Okay, now we're down to $10.

Tell me what it was like to be at the top of the Mackinaw Bridge.

- I'll tell ya.

You know, it was beautiful.

I mean, the day we were up there, I've actually been up there twice now, and it's just breathtaking, yeah.

And you don't want to be afraid of heights, you don't want to be claustrophobic either, 'cause going up in that little elevator is quite a challenge, but I loved it.

Hopefully I can go again.

I'll take you up, if I get permission, would you like to go?

- Well, she'd ask you to push me off, okay?

- No, I would not.

- The wind will do that for us, no problem.

I mean, you got to hang on while you're up there.

- Well, I was fascinated to find out that you did that.

Is there a sense of adventure in you as a quiet dentist, practicing in Lansing?

All of a sudden it becomes an adventurer.

Is that what you are deep inside?

- That's not deep inside, you know- - Wait a minute, wait a minute.

I got to check in with the Governor here.

Why are you smiling at that, Governor?

- Because Marc's a fascinating person and he is definitely not quiet, you said quiet dentist.

He's definitely not quiet, but you know, he loves all things science and frankly, it's exciting.

I learned a lot from him every every day.

I mean, he's a perennial student of the world, of, you know, science.

It's just, he's a fascinating human being.

- So did you ever ride a motorcycle?

- No.

Well, I've ridden on the back of one a couple of times, but after a friend did a wheelie on it once, I swore those off.

- Listen, you, as we established early on in our first conversation, there is a divide between the view.

You let the politics to her and she's obviously leaving retirement to you, Governor, how are you handling his retirement?

- Oh, well, you know, it's funny.

He asked me the other day, it's like, does it make your days feel longer knowing that I'm here, you know, hanging out with the dogs?

And I said, yes, it actually does it.

You know, it's good.

Marc ran his small business for 35 years.

He built it up from scratch.

I mean, it was a lot of work.

It was a long, wonderful experience for him, and so when he started thinking about moving up his retirement, like a lot of people did, frankly, during the pandemic, he, you know, looked to see if there was a potential person to take on the practice and he found the perfect situation and decided to move up his timeline, and I'm happy for him.

You know, if you work hard, you play by the rules, you know, you should be able to make your decision when you're ready, and I want that for everyone, frankly.

- When he first came to you, were you surprised?

And were you apprehensive?

- I wasn't surprised, you know, I know that he had planned on retiring, you know, maybe another six years of practicing and then retiring.

But I, you know, I think this pandemic has taken a toll and I think a lot of people, frankly, have done the calculation about the kind of work they want to do or whether or not they want to continue, especially if they're close to retirement, and we've seen that play out around the globe, frankly.

And that fact that it played out in our own household wasn't too big a surprise actually.

- So Doc, are you ready to campaign with the governor next year?

- If she wants me to, I'll be there.

As long as I don't have to speak or anything.

- Let's see what the, let's see if she, are you gonna ask him, Governor?

Are you gonna ask him?

- On occasion, Tim, but you know, but like we said, Marc's got his own field of practice and interests, and I think he'll join me on the trail for part, for some things and not for others, so that's okay.

- Well, I can tell both of you on my list of the three things good that happened to be today, two of them are you.

Thank you very much.

We appreciate the opportunity.

Have a blessed holiday season as we record this on the 22nd, and look forward to working with both of you in the new year.

Thank you so much.

- May we all have a good 2022.

We deserve one.

And so thank you.

Happy holidays, Tim, to you and Gail and to all of yours.

- Thank you, Governor.

- Happy holidays.

- Thank you, Doc.

(quiet music)