>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> LET US MAKE THIS THE MOMENT WHEN BRITAIN STARTS TO BELIEVE AGAIN, THE MOMENT WE BRING BACK HOPE.

>> BRITAIN HAS YET ANOTHER NEW PRIME MINISTER.

CAN ANDY BURNHAM BRING FRESH ENERGY TO UK POLITICS.

I SPEAK TO LUCY FISHER, WHO COVERS BRITISH GOVERNMENT FOR "THE FINANCIAL TIMES" AND FORMER UK NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER PETER RICKETTS.

> >> THEN - - >> IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT OUR PARTNERS UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING, AND THAT WE NEED AIR DEFENSE MISSILES TO PROTECT LIVES LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE DAY.

>> A PLEA FOR SUPPORT FROM VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY AMIDST CONTROVERSY IN KYIV AS HIS GOVERNMENT UNDERGOES A MAJOR OVERHAUL.

UKRAINIAN JOURNALIST NATALIYA GUMENYUK JOINS ME WITH THE LATEST POLITICS AND WAR NEWS.

> >> AND -- >> WE SEE REALLY PROBLEMATIC APPROACHES FROM I. C. E. OFFICERS IN THE WAY THAT THEY'RE STOPPING CARS, IN THE WAY THAT THEY'RE INTERACTING WITH MOTORISTS, AND THE WAY THEY'RE COMMUNICATING WITH PEOPLE.

>> IS I. C. E. MAKING U. S. STREETS MORE OR LESS DANGEROUS?

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS WITH FORMER POLICE OFFICER SETH STOUGHTON WHO TEACHES EXCELLENCE IN POLICING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF SOUTH CAROLINA.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE HIMSELF.

SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSE BLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK CITY SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

TONIGHT THE UNITED KINGDOM GETS ITS SEVENTH PRIME MINISTER IN JUST TEN YEARS AS ANDY BURNHAM, THE FORMER MAYOR OF MANCHESTER ENTERS NUMBER 10.

SPEAKING WITHOUT NOTES OR A LECTERN, BURNHAM PROMISED BRITAIN A FRESH START.

>> BRITAIN NEEDS TO SHOW THE WORLD THAT WE CAN REGAIN OUR STABILITY ONCE AGAIN.

AND THAT IS OUR CHALLENGE, TO MAKE POLITICS WORK, TO MAKE IT WORK BETTER.

I KNOW PEOPLE AT HOME ARE FED UP WITH POLITICS.

I HEAR YOU.

AND I WANT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN GOOD ENOUGH, AND WE NEED TO BE BETTER.

WE WILL BE.

WE WILL MAKE THIS MOMENT A CIRCUIT BREAKER FOR BRITAIN.

>> THE NEW PRIME MINISTER PROPOSES AN AMBITIOUS RESET, SENDING POWER OUT OF DOWNING STREET, MAKING LIFE'S ESSENTIALS MORE AFFORDABLE, AND REINDUSTRIALIZING BRITAIN.

BUT THE LIST OF CHALLENGES FOR BURNHAM IS LONG, FROM HIGH ENERGY COSTS AND TAX BURDEN TO THE TASK OF PLAY INDICATING AMERICA'S MERCURIAL PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP.

THERE IS NO DOUBT BURNHAM IS A STRONGER COMMUNICATOR THAN KEIR STARMER.

LET'S BRING IN LUCY FISHER WHO IS WHITEHALL EDITOR FOR THE FINANCIAL TIMES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

HERE WE HAVE A PRIME MINISTER ENTERING OFFICE WITH NO GENERAL ELECTION, NO CONTESTED VOTE.

HE WAS BACKED BY 95% OF LABOR MPs.

HE ADDRESSED SORT OF THE UNCONVENTIONAL WAY HE'S ENTERING OFFICE EARLIER TODAY.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> I KNOW PEOPLE AT HOME ARE FED UP WITH POLITICS.

I HEAR YOU.

AND I WANT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN GOOD ENOUGH, AND WE NEED TO BE BETTER.

WE WILL BE.

WE WILL MAKE THIS MOMENT A CIRCUIT BREAKER FOR BRITAIN, BRINGING FORWARD THE BIGGEST CHANGES IN THE LAST 40 YEARS.

>> DOES BURNHAM ACTUALLY HAVE A MANDATE WITH THE BRITISH PUBLIC TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THESE CHANGES THAT HE IS PROMISING?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TIGHTROPE THAT ANDY BURNHAM HAS TO WALK.

ON THE ONE HAND HE IS AN ELECTED PRIME MINISTER, WHAT UK SCIENTISTS IN THE UK NOW CALL TAKEOVER PRIME MINISTERS.

IT'S NOT UNUSUAL.

IN FACT, A MAJORITY OF THE PAST 20 PRIME MINISTERS IN THE UK HAVE BEEN THESE MIDTERM TAKEOVER PRIME MINISTERS WHO COME IN WITHOUT THEIR OWN ACTION, BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT HE IS BOUND BY A MANIFESTO THAT HE HIMSELF DID NOT PUT FORWARD.

AND ON THE ONE HAND, HE'S HAD TO REPEATEDLY PROMISE THAT HE WILL STICK TO THAT MANIFESTO AND HE WILL STICK TO THE FISCAL RULES LAID OUT BY THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION, WHILE ON THE OTHER HAND, TRYING TO PRESENT HIMSELF AS THIS CHANGE MAKER AND WHO WILL ANSWER THE PUBLIC'S CALL FOR CHANGE.

AND YOU WANT TO SEE RADICAL REFORMS COMING IN QUICKLY.

SO THAT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO ACHIEVE.

>> AND SOME OF THOSE CHANGES WILL COME BY WAY OF NEW SCAB NET APPOINTMENTS.

HOW CAN HE SUCCESSFULLY NAVIGATE THAT TIGHTROPE WITH ADDRESSING CONCERNS WITH BOTH THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT SECTORS OF THE PARTY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'RE WAITING WITH BAITED BREATH HERE IN WESTMINSTER FOR THE FIRST CABINET APPOINTMENT OF THE MAJOR ROLES TO BE ANNOUNCED, HIS CHANCELLOR, HIS FOREIGN SECRETARY, HIS HOME SECRETARY.

WHAT WE HAVE HEARD SO FAR THIS AFTERNOON IS ALL THOSE MINISTERS FROM THE STARMER ADMINISTRATION WHO HAVE BEEN AXED.

AND IT IS STRIKING THAT THERE IS A WHOLE SLEW NOW OF STARMER LOYALISTS WHO HAVE BEEN FORCED OUT THAT HAS RAISED SOME EYEBROWS HERE.

HE HASN'T DECIDED TO KEEP ON SOME OF STARMER'S KEY CON UNSELORS TO SHOW HE HAS A BROAD STRETCH.

THE NUMBER OF MPs WHO HAVE BEEN SACKED FROM THE CABINET.

AGAIN, HE'S MADE NO SECRET OF THE FACT HE'S FROM THE NORTH.

HE'S A MANCHESTER REGION MP, AND WANTS TO REBALANCE THE GEOGRAPHICAL IMPETUS IN THE COUNTRY.

HOWEVER, THERE IS A RISK IN DOING THAT.

THAT SOUTHERN MPs, PARTICULARLY THOSE REPRESENTING LONDON AND THE SOUTHEAST WHICH TRADITIONALLY HAS BEEN THE ECONOMIC ENGINE OF THE UK FEEL THEIR NOSES HAVE BEEN PUT OUT OF JOINT BY THE CHOICES HE'S MADE IN HIS CABINET.

>> CAMMIE BED NAK HAS CHALLENGED HIM.

SO FAR HE HAS GIVEN INTERVIEWS TO THE LBC AND THE REDDIT COMMUNIQUE.

HOW LONG CAN A PRIME MINISTER GOVERN WHILE AVOIDING THE TYPICAL TYPE OF INTERVIEWS THAT PRIME MINISTERS GIVE?

>> WELL, I THINK POSSIBLY NOT LONG, NOT LEAST IN THE UK.

IT IS THE PRINT NEWSPAPERS AND THE BROADCAST MEDIA STILL AND VERY MUCH DOMINATE THE NARRATIVE HERE.

ON TOP OF THAT, I WOULD NOTE THAT THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF CRITICISM TO TRY TO AVOID THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

BUT HE DID WITHIN AN HOUR OF FINISHING HIS FIRST SPEECH AS PRIME MINISTER ON DOWNING STREET INVITE THE POLITICAL EDITORS OF WESTMINSTER FOR A TEN- MINUTE BRIEFING IN THE ROSE GARDEN IN DOWNING STREET TO TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HIS PRIORITIES AND DIRECTION FOR HIS GOVERNMENT.

HE GAVE SOME FRESH NEWS LINE TO THOSE JOURNALISTS, INCLUDING MAKING CLEAR HE WANTS TO EXPLOIT FLEXIBILITY IN THE FISCAL RULES.

ALSO GIVING A BIT OF A HINT HE MIGHT INTRODUCE A NEW HIGHER RATE OF INCOME TAX FOR THE HIGHEST EARNERS.

SO ALREADY, WHILE HE IS WANTING TO SORT OF LOOK MODERN AND SHOW HIS AUTHENTICITY ON SOCIAL MEDIA WITH LOTS OF REELS AND SHOWING MORE TONGUE-IN-CHEEK SIDE BY BATTING HIS EYELASHES WHICH ARE UNUSUALLY LONG IT MUST BE SAID AT THE CAMERA AND SORT OF MAKING JOKES ABOUT THE FACT HE LIKES TO WEAR T-SHIRTS RATHER THAN SUITS, IT DOES FEEL LIKE HE WILL HAVE TO ENGAGE WITH THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA AS WELL AS WANTING TO GIVE NEWS TO FRIENDLY BROADCASTERS.

>> I'M SURE YOU HAVE ALREADY PUT IN YOUR REQUESTS AS WE HAVE HERE AT CNN FOR AN INTERVIEW.

HE CLAIMS THAT HE HAS A SECRET ECONOMIC SAUCE, THE ECONOMY FRONT AND CENTER FOR VOTERS THERE, A, QUOTE, BUSINESS FRIENDLY SOCIALISM, THAT IS WHAT HE SAYS WILL BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE POLICY MOVING FORWARD.

HE CALLS IT MANCHESTERISM.

WHAT IS MANCHESTERISM?

AND CAN YOU SCALE IT TO A NATIONAL ECONOMY IN THE UK?

>> WELL, HE ARGUES THAT THE REFORMS THAT HE HELPED CONTINUE WITHIN MANCHESTER, WE SHOULD POINT OUT HE WASN'T THE ARCHITECT OF MANY OF THE REFORMS.

THEY WERE THE BRAINCHILD OF OTHER LUMINARIES OF THE GREATER MANCHESTER LOCAL GOVERNMENT SCENE BEFORE HE CAME INTO OFFICE A DECADE AGO, HE INVITED THE PRIVATE SECTOR IN TO PLAY A CRUCIAL ROLE IN THE REGENERATION OF THE CITY CENTER.

IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT MANCHESTER HAS BEEN A SUCCESS UNDER HIS AUSPICES.

IN MANY METRICS, WHETHER IT'S UNEMPLOYMENT OR GROWTH, IT HAS TOPPED EUROPEAN LEAGUE TABLES IN RECENT YEARS.

I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT TO QUESTION WHETHER IT CAN BE SCALED ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT IS A KEY QUESTION.

AND AGAIN, USING TERMINOLOGY LIKE BUSINESS-FRIENDLY SOCIALISM HAS GIVEN RISE TO CRITICISM THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A BORIS JOHNSON FORMULA OF HAVING ONE'S CAKE AND EATING IT.

AND ALREADY HE HAS TRIED TO STRESS INCLUDING IN HIS SPEECHES LABOR LEADER LAST FRIDAY THAT HE WOULD BE A PRO-BUSINESS PRIME MINISTER.

SOME OF HIS OTHER POLICY EMPHASIZES INCLUDING IMPLICATE PUBLIC UTILITY COMPANIES INTO MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL, THAT COULD CARVE OUT BAD NEWS FOR SHAREHOLDERS IF THAT MEANS FULL-SCALE RENATIONALIZATION.

SO I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE WAITING TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT SUBSTANCE THERE IS TO THAT SORT OF VERY VIBED SPACE SENTIMENT HE IS TRYING TO PROJECT.

>> WELL, THE IN-BOX IS QUITE BRUTAL.

A 58 POUND WELFARE BILL HEADING TO 78 MILLION POUNDS.

TWO MILLION ELDERLY PEOPLE WITH UNMET CARE NEEDS, HE PROMISED TO END HOMELESSNESS.

THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.

WHERE DOES THAT FUNDING COME FROM?

>> WELL, IT WILL BE A DIFFICULT TASK FOR HIS CHANCELLOR TO WORK ALL THAT OUT OVER THAT AS WELL.

KEIR STARMER ANNOUNCED A 15 BILLION POUND UPLIFT TO DEFENSE SPENDING OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

FIVE MILLION IS COMPLETELY UNFUNDED.

THE REST TO COME FROM CAPITAL BUDGET CUTS.

BUT THE DETAILS OF THAT ARE YET TO BE DETERMINED.

NOT EASY FOR ANY NEW PRIME MINISTER TO COME IN AND START CANCEL SCHOOL BUILDING, HOSPITAL BUILDING PROGRAMS, THAT'S FOR SURE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, HE IS TRYING TO GIVE A SENSE TODAY OF HIS POLICY OF THE DIRECTION OF HIS GOVERNMENT BY SAYING HE WANTS TO GET THE WELFARE BILL DOWN.

HE'S TALKED ABOUT TRYING TO INTRODUCE MORE SUPPORT, INCLUDING MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT TO GET YOUNG PEOPLE INTO WORK.

IT'S REALLY TRYING TO STRESS A PREVENTATIVE APPROACH TO WELFARE, STOPPING PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE FROM GETTING ON TO THE WELFARE BENEFITS BILL BY HELPING PEOPLE INTO WORK.

BUT A LOT OF THESE POLICIES TO DO THAT WILL COST MONEY UP FRONT.

IT'S NOT EASY TO SEE HOW HE SQUARES THAT CIRCLING.

>> AND NIGEL FARAGE, THE CLAWS ARE OUT ALREADY.

NIGEL FARAGE ALREADY CALLING FOR ELECTIONS.

BURNHAM BELIEVES THAT HE CAN BEAT NIGEL FARAGE IN LABOR'S HEARTLAND HERE.

NO BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, LET'S JUST LEAVE IT AT THIS, IN THE PAST DECADE, HAS LASTED MORE THAN THREE YEARS.

IS THE PARTY RIGHT TO BET ON ANDY BURNHAM TO BREAK THAT TREND?

>> WELL, THEY SAW WHAT HE DID IN MAKER FIELDS AS WHERE AS YOU POINT OUT VOTERS HAD PLUMPED FOR REFORM IN RECENT COUNCIL ELECTIONS IN THE BRIT MANCHESTER REGION, HE WON WITH A VERY COMMANDING MAJORITY, AND THEREFORE HIS PARTY ARE HOPING HE CAN SCALE THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND BUILD ON THAT SUCCESS TO, YOU KNOW, PRODUCE A PLATFORM IN WHICH LABOR CAN BEAT REFORM AT THE NEXT GENERAL ELECTION.

SO THAT IS THE MILLION QUESTION.

BUT SO FAR, I THINK THE LABOR PARTY FEEL THAT AFTER THE DRUBBING THEY RECEIVED ACROSS ENGLISH COUNCILS AND IN SCOTLAND AND WALES IN MAY, HE IS THEIR BEST BET TO TRY AND BRING ABOUT THAT OUTCOME AT THE NEXT GENERAL ELECTION.

>> ALL RIGHT.

LUCY FISHER, WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AS A FORMER MAYOR AND CABINET MINISTER, ANDY BURNHAM HAS PLENTY OF EXPERIENCE.

BUT ON THE NATIONAL STAGE, HE IS AN UNKNOWN QUANTITY.

AND WHATEVER HIS PLANS FOR BRITAIN DOMESTICALLY, HIS SUCCESS AS PRIME MINISTER COULD RISE AND FALL ON OVERSIGHT OF CRISES FROM IRAN TO UKRAINE.

AND HIS GLOBAL POLICY LEADERSHIP ON CLIMATE, MIGHT BE CONGRATULATION AND I. LET'S BRING IN PETER RICKETTS, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER UNDER PRIME MINISTER DAVID CAMERON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US.

WE KNOW THE NUMBER ONE RELATIONSHIP HERE IS WITH THE UNITED STATES, HE HAS ALREADY ALREADY SPOKEN WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND PER REPORTS, ANDY BURNHAM ASSURED PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT LONDON WOULD BE COMMITTED TO DEFENSE AND SECURITY AND WOULD HELP SUPPORT THE SAFE REOPENING OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THAT IS FROM BURNHAM'S OFFICE IN A STATEMENT ISSUED NOT SO LONG AGO.

JUST TALK ABOUT THE DYNAMICS AT PLAY WITH THIS RELATIONSHIP AND WHAT'S AT STAKE HERE GIVEN WHAT WE SAW SORT OF QUITE SUCCESSFUL START TO A RELATIONSHIP WITH KEIR STARMER, BUT THAT BEGAN TO FIZZLE OUT.

>> THANK YOU, YES.

THIS IS A CRUCIAL RELATIONSHIP FOR THE UK, OF COURSE.

AND IT'S ENCOURAGING TO SEE THAT THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL CONTACT THAT THE PRIME MINISTER MADE IS WITH DONALD TRUMP.

ON THE BIG INTERNATIONAL ISSUES, OF COURSE WANTING TO WORK WITH DONALD TRUMP, INVITING HIM TO THE G20 SUMMIT NEXT YEAR WHICH IS GOING TO BE IN MANCHESTER, ANDY BURNHAM FIEF AFTER THE U. S. G3 MEETING IN MIAMI THIS YEAR.

I THINK THE DIFFERENCES THAT HAVE BEEN BETWEEN BRITAIN AND AMERICA ON, FOR EXAMPLE, DONALD TRUMP'S WAR IN IRAN, WILL CONTINUE.

I WOULD EXPECT ANDY BURNHAM TO BE A FIGURE OF CONTINUITY ON UKRAINE, CONTINUING TO MAINTAIN THE VERY STRONG BRITISH SUPPORT FOR ZELENSKYY AND FOR ARMING UKRAINE AND STEPPING UP ON EUROPEAN --MORE EUROPEAN WORK IN NATO.

BUT HE HAS GOT TO FIND THE MONEY TO BACK UP COMMITMENTS THAT BRITAIN WILL CONTINUE TO PLAY THAT LEADING ROLE.

AND AS LUCY FISHER WAS JUST TELLING YOU, THAT IS DIFFICULT TO MAINTAIN THE UPWARD SWING IN OUR DEFENSE SPENDING.

SO THERE ARE BIG ISSUES, BUT IT'S CLEARLY OFF TO A BIG START IF HE'S MADE IT A PRIORITY TO CALL DONALD TRUMP.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES THAT ONE, ON THE ONE HAND FACING CONSTITUENTS AT HOME AND THE ECONOMIC CHALLENGES THAT HE SAYS IS HIS TOP PRIORITY, WHILE ALSO ON AN INTERNATIONAL STAGE, PLEDGING TO CONTINUE SUPPORT FOR THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

SO I'LL ASK YOU THE QUESTION I ASKED LUCY.

WHERE DOES THAT MONEY COME FROM?

>> WELL, THAT'S THE BIG POLITICAL CHALLENGE.

IT'S THE MONEY AND ALSO THE TIME.

THE MONEY CAN ONLY REALLY COME FROM FINDING REDUCTIONS IN WELFARE SPENDING.

I DON'T THINK OUR FISCAL FINANCIAL POSITION ALLOWS US TO BORROW MUCH MORE THAN THE MARKETS WERE EXPECTING.

THEREFORE IT'S GOT TO COME FROM REDUCTIONS IN GOVERNMENT SPENDING OR INCREASES IN TAXES WHICH CERTAINLY WOULDN'T BE POPULAR HERE.

SO THERE IS AN ISSUE OF MONEY.

I THINK THERE ALSO AN ISSUE OF TIME.

ANDY BURNHAM WILL BE ADVISED BY HIS DOMESTIC PEOPLE THAT KEIR STARMER SPENT TOO MUCH ON INTERNATIONAL WORK, ALWAYS SEEMING TO BE ON A PLANE SOMEWHERE.

YET AS WE FOUND OUT WITH THE GULF CRISIS, CONFLICT ANYWHERE CAN HAVE IMMEDIATE ECONOMIC IMPLICATIONS EVERYWHERE AND CAN AFFECT PRICES IN THE U. S. , IN THE UK, PRICES FOR ENERGY, INTEREST RATES.

SO ANDY BURNHAM CAN'T AFFORD TO IGNORE THE BIG INTERNATIONAL ISSUES EVEN AS HE TRIES TO PUT MORE ENERGY AND IMAGINATION INTO ECONOMIC POLITICS.

THE TWO GO TOGETHER IN THIS INTERCONNECTED WORLD.

SO BOTH MONEY AND TIME ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE ARE GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE FOR ANDY BURNHAM, CLEARLY.

>> HE IS ARGUABLY A BETTER COMMUNICATOR THAN KEIR STARMER.

PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ABLE TO COMMUNICATE VERY WELL WITH HIS CONSTITUENTS IN THE U. S. FOR BOTH THE CAMPAIGN IN ITS FIRST TERM, AND HIS SECOND.

AND YET WHEN IT COMES TO THE WAR IN IRAN, MANY FAULT HIM WITH NOT SELLING THE WAR AND NOT MAKING A CASE FOR THE WAR WITH THE AMERICAN PUBLIC EFFECTIVELY ENOUGH.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT FOR ANDY BURNHAM TO DO THE SAME, BASICALLY LAY OUT WHAT YOU JUST DID FOR OUR VIEWERS ABOUT TELLING THE CONSTITUENTS, HIS SUPPORTERS, THE TAXPAYERS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM WHY SUPPORTING COUNTRIES LIKE UKRAINE MATTERS.

>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY VITAL HE DOES THAT, YES.

WE ARE ASKING BRITISH TAXPAYERS TO CONTINUE BEARING A CONSIDERABLE BURDEN TO SUPPLY ARMS TO UKRAINE, TO HELP THEM FINANCIALLY AT A TIME WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY DOMESTIC PRIORITIES.

BUT WE HAVE WAR IN EUROPE, AND WE HAVE SERIOUS MILITARY EXPERTS TELLING US THAT RUSSIA WILL CONTINUE TO BE HOSTILE WHATEVER THE OUTCOME IN UKRAINE, AND WE'VE ALREADY HAD SABOTAGE, SUBVERSION, A WHOLE LOT OF DIRTY TACTICS FROM THE RUSSIANS IN EUROPE.

AND THERE ARE SOME WHO SAY THAT WE COULD FACE SOME KIND OF PROVOCATION WITH RUSSIAN FORCES COMING ACROSS THE BORDER IN THE BALTIC STATES, FOR EXAMPLE, REALLY QUITE SOON.

SO WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO THE BRITISH PUBLIC, AND THIS WILL BE A TASK FOR ANDY BURNHAM, THAT THEY ARE NOT FACING NORMAL TIMES, THAT THESE ARE DANGEROUS TIMES.

THE WORLD IS IN A DISORDERED STATE.

AMERICA IS PULLING BACK GRADUALLY FROM ITS SUPPORT FOR NATO.

EUROPEANS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO MORE.

AND THAT WILL MEAN SPENDING MORE.

AND I HOPE ANDY BURNHAM'S EXCELLENT COMMUNICATION SKILLS CAN BE TUNED TO THAT.

THEY'RE NOT WHERE HE'S BEEN AT THE MOMENT.

HE'S BEEN VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON THE DOMESTIC AGENDA.

BUT HE CANNOT IGNORE THAT NEED TO GO OUT TO THE BRITISH PUBLIC AND SELL A NEED FOR MORE SECURITY AND MORE DEFENSE IN AND AMONGST ALL THE CHALLENGES.

>> IN THE MOMENTS WE'VE JUST BEEN SPEAKING, FORMER BRITISH DEFENSE MINISTER JOHN HEALY HAS BEEN NAMED AS CHANCELLOR FOR OUR AMERICAN ADD FINANCE MINISTER UNDER ANDY BURNHAM'S PREMIERSHIP.

THAT A SURPRISE TO YOU?

BECAUSE THAT WASN'T THE TOP NAME THAT HAD BEEN FLOATED.

AND JUST REMINDING OUR VIEWERS THAT JOHN HEALY ACTUALLY STEPPED DOWN FROM THE POST OF DEFENSE MINISTER OVER DISAGREEMENTS OVER BUDGET CONCERNS.

>> IT IS A SURPRISE TO ME.

HE'S A VERY ABLE MINISTER.

AS YOU SAY, HE WAS A VERY SUCCESSFUL DEFENSE MINISTER FOR TWO YEARS.

HE STEPPED DOWN BECAUSE HE DIDN'T THINK THERE WAS ADEQUATE FUNDING GOING INTO DEFENSE TO FUND THE STRATEGIC DEFENSE REVIEW THAT WE HAD LAST YEAR.

SO THE FACT THAT HE'S BEEN A CHANCELLOR I THINK IS A VERY STRONG SIGNAL THAT ANDY BURNHAM WILL TAKE THE DEFENSE AND SECURITY ASPECTS OF THE BUDGET SERIOUSLY.

AND THAT WILL BE VERY ENCOURAGING I THINK TO BRITAIN'S ALLIES AS WELL.

BECAUSE THEY WILL SEE JOHN HEALY, WHO THEY KNOW VERY WELL, AS SOMEONE WHO WILL TAKE FULLY INTO THE ACCOUNT THE NEED FOR MORE DEFENSE SPENDING.

SO RATHER THAN ONE OF THE TWO FIGURES THAT WERE UNDER DISCUSSION, JOVANA MAHMOOD OR THE LONG- STANDING CLIMATE AND COMMERCE SECRETARY, HE HAS GONE FOR SOMEONE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LABOR PARTY, A COMPETENT, WELL RESPECTED FIGURE ACROSS THE PARTY AND THE COUNTRY AND WITH A GOOD INTERNATIONAL PROFILE AS WELL.

SO THAT STRIKES ME AS A VERY INTERESTING AND RATHER ENCOURAGING APPOINTMENT.

>> WHAT MESSAGE TO YOU THINK THAT SENDS NATO ALLIES?

>> A MESSAGE THAT ANDY BURNHAM'S GOVERNMENT IS DETERMINED TO KEEP BRITAIN AS AN ACTIVE, INVOLVED MEMBER OF NATO, PAYING ITS WAY, REBUILDING ITS MILITARY STRENGTHS, MEETING THE REQUIREMENTS, THE OBJECTIVES WE HAVE FROM NATO.

AND OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS, RATHER THAN CONSTANTLY BEING DOUBTFUL ABOUT WHETHER THE BRITS WILL HAVE THE MONEY TO HAVE THE RESOURCES TO MEET THEIR NATO REQUIREMENTS.

I THINK IT CAN BE TAKEN AS A VERY POSITIVE SIGNAL.

>> LET ME TALK MORE ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND ANDY BURNHAM, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND KEIR STARMER, I BELIEVE KEIR STARMER JUST RETURNED FROM A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY JUST A FEW DAYS AGO.

THIS ONE IS ONE TO WATCH.

ANDY BURNHAM HAS PLEDGED TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

OBVIOUSLY, WORDS ARE ONE THING AND WELCOME NEWS TO UKRAINIANS, BUT ACTIONS ARE QUITE DIFFERENT.

HERE'S WHAT ANDY BURNHAM SAID ON THIS ISSUE ABOUT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY EXPECTING STEADFAST SUPPORT FROM BRITAIN.

>> I'LL BE MAKING VERY CLEAR LATER TODAY TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY THAT THERE IS NO CHANGE.

I WILL BE WITH HIM 100% AS KEIR STARMER HAS BEEN.

>> ARE THOSE REASSURING WORDS IN KYIV?

AND IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY FOR PERHAPS EVEN MORE SECURITY GUARANTEES THAT THE UNITED KINGDOM CAN OFFER TO UKRAINE?

>> I THINK THEY WILL BE REASSURING WORDS.

IT'S A CROSS-PARTY ISSUE NOW.

A CROSS-PARTY AGREEMENT IN THE UK EVER SINCE BORIS JOHNSON WAS PRIME MINISTER SIX OR SEVEN YEARS AGO THAT BRITAIN STANDS STALWART WITH UKRAINE.

AND EACH GOVERNMENT, EACH PRIME MINISTER HAVE RECOMMITTED TO THAT.

KEIR STARMER I THINK HAD A VERY GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH ZELENSKYY.

I MEAN, HE WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN THE HOURS AFTER THAT RATHER VERY DIFFICULT OVAL OFFICE MEETING AT THE BEGINNING OF ZELENSKYY'S PERIOD TO PICK HIM UP IN LONDON AND HELP HIM AND GET HIM BACK ON TRACK.

SO THEY HAD A VERY STRONG PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.

I THINK THE FACT THAT ANDY BURNHAM HAS SAID THAT, I KNOW HE IS INTENDING TO MAKE ZELENSKYY THE SECOND PHONE CALL HE MAKES AFTER DONALD TRUMP.

IT ALL SENDS A SIGNAL OF CONTINUITY, AND THAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT IN UKRAINE.

NOW, YES, IT'S GOT TO BE BACKED BY REAL RESULTS.

BUT WITH JOHN HEALY SITTING IN THE TREASURY, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A VERY GOOD ALIGNMENT OF THE PLANETS FOR UKRAINE AND THAT THEY SHOULD EXPECT NO CHANGE IN BRITISH SUPPORT AS THEY CONFRONT THIS SUMMER OF CONTINUING MASSIVE RUSSIAN ATTACKS NIGHT BY NIGHT.

>> AS IT RELATES TO OTHER CONFLICTS, ANDY BURNHAM HAS SAID THAT KEIRA KNIGHTLEY WAS TOO SLOW TO CALL FOR A GAZA CEASEFIRE, YET HE HASN'T OFFERED DEFINED SET OF POLICY CHANGES TOWARD ISRAEL THAT PERHAPS HE WOULD IMPLEMENT.

AND AS IT RELATES TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRIOR TO THEIR CONVERSATION, ANDY BURNHAM SAID THAT HE WOULD MEET HIM WHEREVER HE WAS.

AND THAT WAS VIEWED AS SOMEWHAT OF A VAGUE STATEMENT, WHAT DOES THAT ACTUALLY MEAN.

WE'RE STARTING TO SEE A LITTLE BIT OF THAT PLAYOUT.

I READ YOU THE READOUT FROM 10 DOWNING ABOUT THEIR CONVERSATION AS IT RELATES TO THE WAR IN IRAN AND THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

BUT AS IT RELATES TO CLIMATE AND ENERGY IN A POST ON TRUTH SOCIAL PRESIDENT TRUMP CELEBRATED WHAT HE SAID ARE PLANS BY ANDY BURNHAM TO ALLOW UNRESTRICTED DRILLING IN BRITAIN'S INVALUABLE NORTH SEA OIL AND GAS FIELDS.

FRAME THE POLICY CHASES THERE, IF IN FACT THIS IS ACCURATE AS DONALD TRUMP IS OUTLINING.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT PROBABLY DONALD TRUMP IS SLIGHTLY OVERESTIMATING SOME COMMENTS THAT ANDY BURNHAM MADE ABOUT THAT.

THERE HAS BEEN A LONG- RUNNING ISSUE IN OUR POLITICS WHETHER WE SHOULD THE INVEST MORE IN THE NORTH SEA OIL AND GAS RESOURCES OR WHETHER WE SHOULD TO RESPECT OUR CLIMATE CHANGE TARGETS, PUT ALL THE AVAILABLE MONEY INTO, FOR EXAMPLE, WIND OR SOLAR ENERGY.

AND KEIR STARMER TOOK A VERY RESTRICTIVE APPROACH THAT THAT.

ANDY BURNHAM HAS SUGGEST HEAD MIGHT FACILITATE MORE INVESTMENT BY THE OIL AND GAS COMPANIES IN THE OIL FIELDS IN THE NORTH SEA.

HE HAS NOT SAID HE WOULD GIVE NEW LICENSES.

AND I RATHER THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS INTERPRETED WHAT HE SAID TO BE OPEN SEASON FOR NEW LICENSES FOR MORE DRILLING IN THE NORTH SEA.

I THINK THE PRESIDENT TALKED ABOUT PEOPLE DANCING IN THE STREETS.

WELL, I'M NOT SURE THEY'RE DANCING IN THE STREETS OF ABERDEEN, BECAUSE I THINK ANDY BURNHAM'S PLANS ARE MUCH MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN THAT.

SOME EASING UP OF RESTRAINTS IN INVESTMENT, BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO BE OPEN SEASON FOR THE OIL MAJORS TO GO DRILL IN THE NORTH SEA.

SO I FEAR IT'S A BIT OF CORRECTIVE IS REQUIRED THERE.

BUT ON THAT WHOLE AGENDA, I THINK ANDY BURNHAM AND HIS GOVERNMENT WILL CONTINUE, AGAIN, PRETTY MUCH THE STANDARD BRITISH APPROACH ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

ONE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCES COMING UP IN A BUSY OUGHT STADIUM THE CLIMATE CHANGE CONFERENCE IN ANKARA IN NOVEMBER, AND ONE OF THE SIGNALS THAT ANDY BURNHAM WILL SEND IS WHETHER HE GOES TO THAT IN PERSON OR NOT TO KEEP UP SOME KIND OF LEADERSHIP ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND THERE WE WILL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE.

>> AND AS YOU NOTED THERE, ANDY BURNHAM HAS NOT ISSUED ANY LICENSES TO ALLOW FURTHER DRILLING, DESPITE WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS INTERPRETATION OF THAT POLICY IS GOING FORWARD.

PETER RICKETTS, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> >> NOW RUSSIA HAS CARRIED OUT INTENSE BALLISTIC MISSILE ATTACKS ON UKRAINIAN CITIES, INCLUDING KYIV OVERNIGHT.

DOZENS HAVE BEEN KILLED OR INJURED.

ONCE AGAIN, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY PLEADED FOR MORE ANTI-BALLISTIC INTERCEPTORS FROM INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS.

BUT ZELENSKYY IS FACING MORE THAN JUST A SHORTAGE OF DEFENSIVE WEAPONRY.

POLITICAL PROTESTS HAVE GROWN OVER HIS DECISION TO FIRE HIS POPULAR DEFENSE MINISTER MYKHAILO FEDOROV.

ZELENSKYY CHOSE TO SIDE WITH HIS COMMANDER IN CHIEF, ALEKSANDER SYRSKYI, KNOWN AS THE BUTCHER FOR TOLERATING HIGH CASUALTY RATES AMONG HIS TROOPS.

BY CONTRAST, HE CHAMPIONED THE SUCCESSFUL USE OF DRONES.

WHAT DOES ALL THIS MEAN?

LET'S ASK JOURNALIST NATALIYA GUMENYUK JOINING US FROM KYIV.

NATALYA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE FALLOUT OF THE FIRING, LET'S START WITH THE OVERNIGHT ASSAULT, ONE OF THE LARGEST BALLISTIC MISSILE BARRAGES OF THE WAR THUS FAR ON KYIV, THE THIRD MAJOR ATTACK ON THE CAPITAL IN JUST OVER THE LAST MONTH.

YOU'RE THERE.

TELL US ABOUT ITS IMPACT AND HOW IT IS AFFECTING RESIDENTS 24 HOURS LATER.

>> SO, OF COURSE, KYIV, THE CAPITAL, HAS BECOME ONE OF A REALLY, REALLY DANGEROUS PLACE BECAUSE IT'S TARGETED PRECISELY, ESPECIALLY WITH THE BALLISTIC MISSILES.

WITHIN THE LAST YEAR, UKRAINE DEVELOPED THE DRONE INTERCEPTORS, HOMEGROWN TECHNOLOGY.

SO RUSSIA STARTED TO USE THE MORE AND MORE BALLISTIC MISSILES WHICH IS HARDER TO INTERCEPT BECAUSE SPECIFICALLY, THE BALLISTIC MISSILES CAN BE INTERCEPTED WITH THE PATRIOT MISSILES, AND WE KNOW THERE IS A GLOBAL SCARETY.

I'LL DARE TO REMIND OF THE PRESIDENT WITHIN THE OFFICES OF UKRAINE, WITHIN THE THREE WEEKS OF THE CAMPAIGN IN IRAN, THE AMOUNT OF THE PATRIOT MISSILES USED WAS HALF OF --BY THE U. S. AND BY THE GULF COUNTRIES HALF OF WHAT WAS USED WITHIN UKRAINE IN THE FOUR YEARS OF THE WAR.

SO THERE IS A DEFICIT.

AND UKRAINE TRYING TO GET MORE, UKRAINE TRYING TO INTERCEPT UKRAINIAN AIR DEFENSE.

SO UKRAINIAN ANSWER IS NOT REALLY THE SHORT-TERM.

THERE ARE THESE DECISIONS ABOUT THE ENTIRE BALLISTIC MISSILE COALITION WITHIN EUROPE, THE MONEY BEING INVESTED TO DEVELOP THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WON'T BE INDEPENDENT FROM THE U. S. BUT MEANWHILE, OF COURSE THE NIGHTS ARE MORE DANGEROUS.

ON THE SPECIFIC NEIGHBORHOODS, RUSSIA THIS TIME IS USING MAPS.

SO THEY'RE TRYING TO ATTACK ALL KIND OF FACILITIES, THE --WHERE THEY ALLEGEDLY CONSIDER TO BE --ANY TYPE OF THE DRONE PRODUCTION.

BUT THERE COULD BE --WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IS THERE.

AND WE, FOR INSTANCE, WOULD LEARN THE NEWS THAT 1.

5 MILLION OF THE BOOKS WHICH HAS BEEN PRINTED HAS BEEN DESTROYED.

OF COURSE THERE ARE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

LUCKILY THERE ARE NOT THAT MUCH.

BUT RUSSIA DOES IT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T DO MUCH IN THE BATTLEFIELD.

THAT'S THE POINT.

UKRAINE KIND OF MANAGED TO REACH SOME OF THE PARITY IN THE BATTLEFIELD.

THE ONLY THING RUSSIA DOES IS, YOU KNOW, THIS TERRORIZING OF THE CIVILIAN POPULATION, WITH NOT MUCH MILITARY GAIN, BUT TRYING TO DESTROY THE MORALE HOWEVER.

WE UNDERSTAND IT'S VERY EXHAUSTING, IT'S DANGEROUS.

IT'S DANGEROUS IN THE CAPITAL.

HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE UKRAINIAN ATTITUDE TOWARDS RUSSIA.

UKRAINIANS ARE NOT GOING TO BE GIVING UP BECAUSE OF THAT BECAUSE OF RUSSIA TRYING TO TERRORIZE THE CIVILIANS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT INTERNAL DEBATE NOW OVER WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BATTLEFIELD AND THE WAR AS THIS WAR IS NOW ENTERING AND HAS ENTERED ITS FIFTH YEAR.

AND OF COURSE I'M REFERRING TO THE FIRING OF DEFENSE MINISTER FEDOROV, THE FOURTH DEFENSE MINISTER SINCE THE LARGER SCALE INVASION IN 2022.

HE IS VERY YOUNG, 35 YEARS OLD, NO MILITARY BACKGROUND, BUT IS QUITE POPULAR, AND IS REALLY BEING CHAMPIONED FOR TURBO CHARGING UKRAINE'S DRONE WARFARE THERE AND CUTTING OFF STARLINK ACCESS FOR RUSSIA AS WELL.

IT APPEARS THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SIDE WITH HIS COMMANDER IN CHIEF, OLEKSANDR SYRSKYI, WHO HAS MANY SUPPORTERS AND MANY CRITICS.

MANY SAY THAT HE IS VIEWING THE MILITARY AND THE TROOPS AS TOO EXPENDABLE.

THAT'S WHY HE HAS BEEN DUBBED THE BUTCHER.

HOW DID WE GET TO THIS POINT?

AND HOW MUCH PRESSURE IS PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY UNDER RIGHT NOW GIVEN THE DECISION HE MADE?

>> I SHOULD SAY THAT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE BIGGEST ZELENSKYY MISTAKE WITHIN THE LAST YEARS, WHICH WOULD COST HIM A LOT, MAINLY BECAUSE HE KIND OF DIDN'T READ THE ATTITUDE OF THE PEOPLE.

FEDOROV WASN'T REALLY THAT POPULAR BEFORE.

HOWEVER, OF COURSE HE IS YOUNG.

HE IS PROGRESSIVE.

AND IMPORTANT TO EXPLAIN WHAT WAS SPECIFIC ABOUT FEDOROV, WHO JOINED --WHO WAS LIKE THE SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGER FOR ZELENSKYY DURING THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND THEN DEVELOPED THIS VERY SUCCESSFUL MINISTER OF DIGITAL TRANSFORMATION.

BUT THAT MINISTRY, BECAUSE FEDOROV HAS BECOME THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE SINCE 2022 WAS PIONEER FOR BUILDING THE INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE DRONE WAR.

SO MORE OR LESS CREATING THE SYSTEM CAPABLE TO SCALE, TO STREAMLINE THE PROCUREMENT OF THE DRONES, TO PROCURE DRONES AND ALL OTHER THINGS OUTSIDE OF THE OLD SYSTEM.

DRONES WERE NOT CONSIDERED THAT IMPORTANT WEAPON BEFORE 2025 WHEN THE DRONES NOW ACCOUNT FOR 95% OF THE CASUALTIES BOTH ON THE RUSSIAN AND UKRAINIAN SIDE.

SO FEDOROV WAS REALLY DOING ALL KIND OF ACCELERATORS FOR THE DRONE PRODUCERS.

AND NOT THEN HE WAS APPOINTED AS THE MINISTER FOR DEFENSE IN EARLY FIRST DAYS OF THIS YEAR, 2026.

AND I WOULD TRY TO EXPLAIN WHAT REALLY HAPPENS, BECAUSE IT WAS QUITE SURPRISING.

UKRAINE LOOKED LIKE VERY SUCCESSFUL IN CHANGING THE COURSE AND THE TIDE OF THE WAR WITH THE TECHNOLOGY, INSTITUTE ABOUT THE MANPOWER, WHICH UKRAINE COMPARED TO RUSSIA OOZES TECHNOLOGY AND VERY INTERESTINGLY PUT IT HIMSELF.

THE PEOPLE IN UKRAINE FELT THE INITIATIVE IS FINALLY AGAIN IN THE UKRAINIAN HANDS.

AND THE TRAJECTORY WAS SHOT DOWN WITH HIS UNEXPECTED DISMISSAL.

I WON'T DEMONIZE SYRSKYI THAT MUCH.

HOWEVER, HE KIND OF REPRESENT MORE OR LESS THE OLD CONVENTIONAL GUARD OF THE MILITARY.

SO UKRAINIAN ARMY IS THE ARMY OF THE CIVILIANS.

THE RECENT REVOLUTION OF THE DRONE WARFARE.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT VIEWS HOW THE WAR SHOULD BE SHOT, WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE MORE MILITARY DISCIPLINE, OR WHETHER THIS TECHNOLOGY CAN REALLY BE GAME-CHANGER.

I WOULD PERSONALLY INSIST THE DRONE TECHNOLOGY IS A GAME-CHANGER.

BUT THAT'S DISMISSAL.

THAT'S WHY IT WAS SO UNEXPECTED, AND IT CAUSED THE EVERYDAY PROTESTS THEN IN UKRAINE.

WE CAN IMAGINE THIS THERE ARE PEOPLE COMING CLOSE TO THE PRESIDENTIAL OFFICE, TO THE SQUARE EVERY SINGLE DAY, YOU KNOW, EVEN TODAY.

AND FOR THE LAST DAYS, IT'S QUITE CLEAR THAT MOST POSSIBLY ZELENSKYY WILL NEED TO FIRE SYRSKYI.

HE WOULD FOR THE LAST DAY, HE IS MEETING THE CANDIDATES FOR THE NEW COMMANDER OF THE GENERAL STAFF.

YOU KNOW, IT'S STILL PENDING.

BUT IT WAS VERY UNEXPECTED WHAT HAPPENED WITH ALSO THE MINISTER OF DEFENSE COMING OUT TO THE OPEN BRIEFING AND SAYING THAT LIKE I NEED TO TELL CREWS THERE ARE PROBLEMS IN THE ARMY AFTER FOUR YEARS.

THERE ARE THINGS WE HAVE TO CHANGE.

WE SHOULD BE HONEST, OTHERWISE WE WON'T WIN THIS WAR.

WE WILL BE IN A DIRE SITUATION IF WE WOULD FIGHT IN THE OLD WAY.

SO THAT'S WHAT IS A CONFLICT IN THE NUTSHELL.

>> YES, THIS DOES SORT OF TEAM TO BE A BATTLE, AN INTERGENERATIONAL BATTLE HERE, AS YOU SAID, OLD GUARD VERSUS NEW GUARD AND FEDOROV REPRESENTING DRONE WARFARE AND THE TECHNOLOGY THEY'VE EXPORTED AROUND THE WORLD BEYOND JUST THE BATTLEFIELDS THERE IN UKRAINE.

WHAT DOES PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY NEED TO DO IN THE NEXT 22 TO 48 HOURS TO QUELL SOME OF THIS FRUSTRATION?

AS YOU NOTED AND IT'S BEEN REPORTED, HE IS MEETING WITH POTENTIAL GENERALS TO REPLACE, MAYBE EVEN BOTH OF THESE MEN AT THIS POINT.

ON THE ONE HAND, IT'S A SIGN OF DEMOCRACY HOLDING THAT A COUNTRY IN FIVE YEARS OF WAR IS ALLOWING ITS CITIZENS TO COME OUT IN PROTEST.

ON THE OTHER HAND, IT'S A SIGN OF UNDERLYING TENSION AND FRUSTRATION.

WHAT DOES HE NEED TO DO?

>> SO THE DEMAND OF THE PEOPLE, AND IT'S A VERY ACTIVE PART OF THE SOCIETY, THE PEOPLE WHO COME ON THE STREETS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ARE MAINLY VERY YOUNG PEOPLE.

THEY'RE FATHERS MAINLY FIGHTING IN THE ARMY, FATHERS, MOTHERS, MAYBE BROTHERS.

I THINK THAT THE DEMAND IS FORMALLY TO BRING BACK FEDOROV, BECAUSE AFTER THE INITIAL SHOCK, THE PARLIAMENT KIND OF SEIZED THE MOMENT NOT TO VOTE FOR A NEW MINISTER.

THEY NEEDED TO GIVE THIS TIME.

IT'S A BIT UNLIKELY THAT HE WILL RETURN FEDOROV TO HIS POSITION.

AND I DON'T WANT JUST TO SPEAK A LOT OF RUMORS, BECAUSE THE SITUATION, THE RUMORS ARE EVERY HOUR THERE IS SOMETHING NEW COMING.

BUT HE NEEDS TO RETURN SOME WAY, YOU KNOW, LIKE TO BRING THE NEW COMMANDER IN CHIEF FIRST OF ALL.

IT MOVED TO THAT LEVEL.

FEDOROV NEED TO HAVE QUITE A STRONG POSITION SOMEWHERE IN THE GOVERNMENT.

BUT THE INFLUENCE OF THAT DECISION ON THE -- ZELENSKYY WOULD BE ON WHAT HE HAS ALREADY DONE WOULD BE QUITE HARSH.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT IT'S INDEED THE SYMBOL OF DEMOCRACY DURING THE WAR HAVING THESE TYPE OF PROTESTS.

>> I'M SO SORRY, WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

BUT WE WILL CONTINUE TO MONITOR THIS VERY RAPIDLY DEVELOPING STORY COMING OUT OF UKRAINE.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN, WHICH HAS TURNED DEADLY AGAIN.

IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS, THREE PEOPLE HAVE DIED DURING ENCOUNTERS WITH I. C. E. AGENTS, SPARKING PUBLIC OUTRAGE AND RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT TACTICS.

MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS TO SETH STOUGHTON, FORMER POLICE OFFICER AND NOW PROFESSOR OF LAW ABOUT THIS RISE IN VIOLENCE, WHAT MIGHT BE GOING WRONG, AND HOW TO FIX IT.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

PROFESSOR SETH STOUGHTON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE'RE TALKING TO YOU TODAY BECAUSE ROUGHLY IN THE LAST WEEK, THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN ENCOUNTERS WITH I. C. E. AGENTS.

OR I. C. E. OFFICERS.

TWO OF THEM FROM BEING SHOT IN A MOVING CAR.

ONE OF THEM WAS RUNNING AWAY AND WAS HIT BY ANOTHER CAR.

BUT THESE ARE NOT THE ONLY EXAMPLES.

FEDERAL IMMIGRATION AGENTS HAVE OPENED FIRE IN AT LEAST 22 INCIDENTS SINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP RETURNED TO OFFICE RESULTING IN SIX DEATHS, INCLUDING THREE U. S. CITIZENS.

"THE WASHINGTON POST" HAS REPORTED THAT THEY'VE IDENTIFIED 17 INSTANCES IN WHICH THESE IMMIGRATION OFFICERS FIRED INTO MOVING VEHICLES.

THEY DIDN'T ALL RESULT IN DEATHS.

THE FIRST QUESTION I HAD FOR YOU AS A FORMER POLICE OFFICER YOU EVER, AS A LAW PROFESSOR, AND AS A PERSON WHO STUDIES THE USE OF FORCE, HOW DOES THIS STRIKE YOU?

>> TROUBLING.

IT'S TROUBLING.

SOME OF IT MIGHT BE ATTRIBUTABLE TO AN INCREASE IN OPERATIONS AS WE INCREASE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF I. C. E. ENCOUNTERS, THEN IT MAKES SENSE THAT WE'RE GOING TO INCREASE THE TOTAL NUMBERS OF EVEN THE SMALL PERCENTAGE OF NUMBERS THAT INVOLVE THE USE OF FORCE.

THE TROUBLING PART, THOUGH, IS THE CONSISTENCY THAT WE SEE BETWEEN SOME OF THESE EVENTS THAT HAVE BEEN DEPICTED ON THE MEDIA.

WE SEE POOR TACTICS.

WE SEE REALLY PROBLEMATIC APPROACHES FROM I. C. E. OFFICERS IN THE WAY THAT THEY ARE STOPPING CARS, IN THE WAY THAT THEY'RE INTERACTING WITH MOTORISTS, AND THE WAY THAT THEY'RE COMMUNICATING WITH PEOPLE.

AND THEN AFTER INCIDENTS, WE SEE SOME TROUBLING THINGS FROM THE AGENCY AS A WHOLE THAT SUGGESTS WE MIGHT NOT BE JUST DEALING WITH INDIVIDUAL OFFICERS WHO MAY NOT BE AS WELL-TRAINED AS WE MIGHT WANT OR MAYBE DEVIATING FROM THEIR TRAINING, BUT INSTEAD THERE MIGHT BE SOME AGENCY-LEVEL PRESSURE THAT IS CREATING THIS BEHAVIOR THAT IS CONTRIBUTING TO BAT YOU'D COMES.

>> LET'S TAKE THESE THINGS PIECE BY PIECE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT PROBLEMATIC APPROACHES, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

BECAUSE THIS IS FRANKLY -- THIS IS A JOB THAT MOST OF US AREN'T GOING TO HAVE TO DO.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT PROBLEMATIC APPROACHES, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND ALTHOUGH MOST PEOPLE DON'T MAKE TRAFFIC STOPS, MOST PEOPLE DON'T ARREST OTHER PEOPLE, THERE ARE A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO DO.

STATE AND LOCAL POLICE OFFICERS.

STATE AND LOCAL POLICE OFFICERS MAKE A BUNCH OF TRAFFIC STOPS, WELL OVER TEN MILLION A YEAR.

ITS MOST COMMON WAY FOR SOMEONE TO INTERACT WITH A POLICE OFFICER IN THE UNITED STATES.

THEY ARREST ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE A YEAR, ACCORDING TO THIS REPORT IN THE FBI.

SO ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT IN SORT OF GENERAL PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, WE DO HAVE A SPECIFIC PROFESSIONAL GROUP, OFFICERS, WHO ARE USED TO DOING EXACTLY THE KIND OF THINGS WE SEE I. C. E. AGENTS DOING, STOPPING CARS AND ARRESTING PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE POLICING AS A PROFESSION HAS DEVELOPED STANDARDIZED WAYS THAT OFFICERS STOP VEHICLES OR DON'T STOP VEHICLES, OR APPROACH A VEHICLE ONCE IT'S BEEN STOPPED OR NOT, OR THE WAY THAT OFFICERS MAY GO ABOUT ARRESTING SOMEONE, FOR EXAMPLE.

IN OTHER WORDS, I. C. E. AGENTS ARE NOT RAIDING ON A BLANK SLATE.

THEY'RE BUILDING ON A HISTORICAL PRACTICE THAT HAS BEEN DEVELOPED NOT IN SOME IVORY TOWER, BUT ON THE STREET AS POLICE AND OFFICERS HAVE ENGAGED IN VERY SIMILAR ACTIONS.

IT MAY NOT BE FOR IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT, BUT THE ACTUAL ACTIONS ARE VERY SIMILAR.

SO WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT PROBLEMATIC PRACTICES, I'M LOOKING AT THINGS LIKE HOW I. C. E. AGENTS ARE ACTUALLY CONDUCTING TRAFFIC STOPS.

THAT IS HOW THEY'RE INITIATING THOSE TRAFFIC STOPS.

IN AT LEAST SOME CASES, WE SEE VEHICLES THAT ARE UNMARKED, AND EVEN WORSE, SOME OF THE VEHICLES DON'T APPEAR TO BE EQUIPPED WITH, OR AT LEAST DON'T HAVE ACTIVATED ANY KIND OF EMERGENCY LIGHTING, THE FLASHING BLUE AND RED LIGHTS, OVERHEADLIGHTS OR EVEN ONBOARD LIGHTS.

THAT'S REALLY PROBLEMATIC.

IN POLICING, A GENERAL PREFERENCE FOR MARKED UNITS, THAT IS VISIBLY IDENTIFIABLE POLICE VEHICLES TO STOP CARS.

ONE SO THAT PEOPLE KNOW IT'S A POLICE OFFICER THAT'S STOPPING YOU, AND TWO, SO THAT THE OVERHEAD LIGHTS THAT ARE FLASHING ALERT NOT ONLY THE DRIVER THAT SOMEONE IS TRYING TO STOP, BUT ALSO ALL OF THE OTHER MOTORISTS OR PEDESTRIANS ON THE ROAD WHO NOW HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT THERE ARE VEHICLES STOPPED IN WHAT MIGHT BE A LANE OF TRAFFIC.

SO WHEN I. C. E. DEVIATES FROM THAT SPECIFIC VERY BASIC PRACTICE, IT CREATES SOME PROBLEMS.

WE ALSO SEE DEVIATIONS WITH HOW THE STOPS ARE BEING INITIATED INSTEAD OF STOPPING VEHICLES WITH A NORMAL ACTIVATION OF EMERGENCY LIGHTS, WE'RE SEEING A LOT OF THESE BOXING IN MANEUVERS.

BOX-IN MANEUVERS DO HAVE A ROLE IN POLICING, BUT IT'S A PRETTY LIMITED ROLE BECAUSE IT'S A DANGEROUS TECHNIQUE, AND IT'S ONE THAT HAS TO BE PERFORMED IN A PARTICULARLY PRECISE WAY.

THAT IS AS YOU'RE BOXING IN ANOTHER CAR, YOU GENERALLY WANT THE POLICE VEHICLE TO BE VERY CLOSE TO, EVEN MAKING CONTACT WITH THE FRONT AND THE REAR BUMPER OF THE CAR THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO BOX IN.

IF YOU DON'T DO THAT, THEY CAN JUST ANGLE THEIR WAY OUT.

WHEN WE SEE A LOT OF THE I. C. E. AGENTS' STOPS, WHEN THEY'RE CUTTING OFF VEHICLES OR DOING BOXING MANEUVERS, THERE IS A HALF CAR LENGTH, THREE OR FOUR FEET BETWEEN THEIR CAR AND THE VEHICLE THEY'RE STOPPING.

SO EVEN IF IT WAS APPROPRIATE TO USE A BOXING IN MANEUVER, WHICH IT'S NOT CLEAR TO ME THAT'S THE CASE, THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY PERFORMING THE BOXING IN MANEUVERS VERY WELL.

WE SEE THE SAME THING IN THE WAY THAT I. C. E. OFFICERS ARE OFTEN APPROACHING VEHICLES.

SOMETIMES STEPPING INTO OR MAINTAINING POSITIONS IN FRONT OF OR BEHIND A VEHICLE, WHICH EXPOSES THE OFFICER TO DANGER IF THE VEHICLE MOVES, OR SOMETIMES JUST BREAKING WINDOWS WITH VERY, VERY LITTLE PROVOCATION, RIGHT.

NOT GIVING THE PERSON IN THE CAR AN OPPORTUNITY OR AN EXPLANATION TO COMPLY, BUT INSTEAD BREAKING WINDOWS REALLY ABRUPTLY IN A WAY THAT CAN ACTUALLY PROVOKE SOMEONE TO FLEE RATHER THAN TO COMPLY.

>> I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE BEING STOPPED IS STRESSFUL.

IT'S SCARY.

WHEN YOU WERE SORT OF TRAINED AS A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, ARE YOU TRAINED TO DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE SCARED?

NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE THEY'VE DONE SOMETHING WRONG, BUT YOU WERE SCARY BY DEFINITION.

SO HOW ARE YOU TRAINED TO DEAL WITH THAT?

BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I CAN'T HELP BUT NOTICE AND SEEING VIDEO OF SOME OF THESE ENCOUNTERS IS OFFICERS CURSING AT PEOPLE, CALLING THEM EPITHETS.

I'M JUST WONDERING IS THAT --IS THAT NORMAL?

>> THE SHORT VERSION IS NO, IT'S CERTAINLY NOT NORMAL IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT WE EXPECT FROM PROFESSIONAL POLICING IN 2026.

OFFICERS KNOW, AND TYPICALLY GET TRAINING THAT SCARED PEOPLE MAKE BAD DECISIONS.

THERE ARE LOTS OF ELEMENTS OF POLICE TACTICS, INCLUDING COMMUNICATIONS ABOUT AVOIDING CONFLICT, AVOIDING TENSION, OR DE-ESCALATING CONFLICT AND TENSION THAT'S OCCURRED.

TRAFFIC STOPS ARE ACTUALLY A GREAT EXAMPLE.

OFFICERS ARE GENERALLY TAUGHT THAT WHEN THEY INITIATE A TRAFFIC STOP, ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO MITIGATE THE FEAR, THE NERVES THAT CAN COME FROM A TRAFFIC STOP IS TO INTRODUCE YOURSELF, IDENTIFY YOUR AGENCY, AND EXPLAIN THE REASON FOR THE STOP.

HI, I'M OFFICER STOUGHTON WITH THE LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT.

I STOPPED YOU TODAY BECAUSE I NOTICED WHEN YOU MADE THAT RIGHT TURN, YOU DIDN'T COME TO A FULL AND COMPLETE STOP AT THE STOP SIGN.

AND THEN TO PROVIDE CLEAR INSTRUCTION ABOUT WHAT YOU NEED AND WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

IF I CAN JUST GET YOUR LICENSE AND REGISTRATION, I'LL CHECK EVERYTHING OUT.

IF IT CHECKS OUT, I'LL GIVE YOU A WARNING AND SEND YOU ON YOUR WAY.

THE REASON THAT OFFICERS DO THAT IS NOT JUST SORT OF PHILOSOPHICAL COMMITMENT TO PROFESSIONALISM, IT'S THAT IT MAKES PEOPLE FEEL BETTER.

IT LETS THEM KNOW WHAT'S COMING, AND IT LETS THEM KNOW THIS IS A PRETTY NORMAL ENCOUNTER, EVEN IF IT IS UNUSUAL FOR THEM BECAUSE MAYBE THEY'VE NEVER BEEN STOPPED BEFORE.

THE SAME THING IS TRUE AS OFFICERS ARE INTERACTING WITH SOMEONE WHO THEY MIGHT WANT TO ARREST.

SO I RAN YOUR BACKGROUND.

YOU DO HAVE AN OUTSTANDING WARRANT.

I'M PLACING YOU UNDER ARREST.

GO AHEAD AND TURN AROUND, PUT YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR BACK FOR ME.

IT DOESN'T REQUIRE SCREAMING OR YELLING OR PROFANITIES OR EPITHETS.

THE WHOLE POINT IS TO TRY AND KEEP THINGS AS CALM, AS STABLE AS THE SITUATION ALLOWS.

>> SO THAT LEADS ME TO A QUESTION OF WHETHER ARE THESE PEOPLE ENGAGING IN THESE STOPS POORLY TRAINED, OR IS THIS INTENTIONAL CONDUCT BEING DICTATED BY THEIR SUPERIORS FOR SOME PURPOSE APART FROM --FROM BEST LAW ENFORCEMENT PRACTICE?

BECAUSE WHAT I'M HEARING YOU SAY IS THESE DE-ESCALATION TACTICS AND THESE PROFESSIONAL TACTICS FOR MAKING A STOP ARE NOT JUST TO MAKE A PERSON FEEL BETTER, IT'S TO PROTECT THE OFFICER AS WELL.

IT'S A BEST PRACTICE BECAUSE IT PROTECTS BOTH PARTIES.

>> I DON'T HAVE A COMPLETE ANSWER THERE.

I WOULD NOTE THAT I. C. E. HAS BEEN IN THE BUSINESS OF IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT SINCE IT WAS CREATED.

SO THE IDEA OF STOPPING PEOPLE, ARRESTING PEOPLE, OR DETAINING THEM ON CIVIL IMMIGRATION ORDERS, EVEN CONDUCTING RAIDS, THAT'S NOT NEW TO THE AGENCY.

I HAVE A REALLY HARD TIME BELIEVING THAT THE AGENCY AND THAT OFFICERS AT THE AGENCY HAVEN'T BEEN EXPOSED EITHER RECENTLY OR HISTORICALLY TO THE KIND OF TRAINING THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THE BASIC PROFESSIONAL APPROACHES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

MAYBE, MAYBE NEWER OFFICERS AREN'T GETTING THAT TRAIN.

AGAIN, I'D BE SURPRISED BECAUSE THEY GO TO ONE OF THE FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING CENTERS FOR THEIR BASIC TRAINING.

AND EVEN IF THE TRAINING SCHEDULE IS COMPRESSED, THESE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT I WOULD CERTAINLY EXPECT TO BE CONTINUED, EVEN IN A COMPRESSED TRAINING SCHEDULE, BECAUSE THEY ARE ESSENTIAL NOT JUST FOR THE EFFECTIVE PERFORMANCE OF THE JOB, BUT FOR THE SAFE PERFORMANCE OF THE JOB, RIGHT.

INSURING THE SAFETY OF THE AGENTS AND THE COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

>> AFTER THESE MOST RECENT KILLINGS, ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS REPORTEDLY INSTRUCTED I. C. E. TO SUSPEND MOST VEHICLE STOPS WHILE IT REVIEWED ITS TACTICS, OKAY.

BUT JUST HOURS LATER, PRESIDENT TRUMP PUBLICLY DISAGREED, WRITING ON ONE OF HIS SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, "WE CANNOT GIVE UP ONE OF I. C. E.

'S MOST IMPORTANT AND EFFECTIVE CRIME FIGHTING TOOLS, THE TRAFFIC STOP," IN ALL CAPS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

WHAT MESSAGE DOES IT SEND WHEN THE PRESIDENT SORT OF CONTRADICTS THIS IN SUCH A PUBLIC WAY?

>> I THINK WHAT IT TELLS ME IS THAT WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHO'S CALLING THE SHOTS OR WHAT THE BASIS FOR THEIR STRATEGIC AND TACTICAL DECISIONS ARE.

IT WOULD CERTAINLY MAKE SENSE TO ME IF YOU HAVE AN AGENCY THAT HAS IDENTIFIED A POTENTIAL PROBLEM FOR THE AGENCY TO TAKE NOT EVEN A FULL STEP BACK, BUT JUST A HALF STEP BACK AND SAY ALL RIGHT, HOW DO WE IMPROVE FUTURE OUTCOMES.

HOW DO WE MAKE OUR ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS SAFER AND MORE EFFECTIVE.

AND BY THE WAY, I'M NOT EVEN GETTING INTO THE IMMIGRATION POLICY DEBATE HERE, RIGHT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT WHETHER ICE AGENTS SHOULD BE ENGAGED IN THE KIND OF OPERATIONS THEY'RE ENGAGED IN.

ALL WE'RE FOCUSING ON NOW IS HOW THEY SHOULD BE DOING IT, ASSUMING THEY ARE ENGAGED IN THESE OPERATIONS, HOW SHOULD THEY BE DOING IT.

AND THE ANSWER, AND I THINK THIS ANSWER WOULD PROBABLY BE SHARED BY WHOEVER AT THE AGENCY DECIDED TO PUMP THE BRAKES A LITTLE BIT, SHOULD BE THEY SHOULD BE PERFORMING THESE OPERATIONS IN A PROFESSIONALLY APPROPRIATE, COMPETENT WAY THAT IS NOT LIKELY TO PROVE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND UNDERMINE THE SAFETY OF THE OFFICERS AND THE COMMUNITY MEMBERS INVOLVED.

MAYBE THE ADMINISTRATION DOES NOT ENTIRELY SHARE THAT PERSPECTIVE, BUT I --IT FEELS LIKE A BREAKDOWN IN COMMUNICATION ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING AND WHY IT'S HAPPENING.

>> NEEDLESS TO SAY, I AND OTHER REPORTERS HAVE ASKED THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY MULTIPLE TIMES OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS ABOUT THEIR --ABOUT THEIR TACTICS, PROCEDURES, AND STRATEGY, OKAY.

ESPECIALLY EARLIER THIS YEAR THERE WAS A LOT OF FOCUS ON MINNESOTA WHERE TWO U. S. CITIZENS WERE KILLED IN ENCOUNTERS WITH I. C. E. YOU KNOW, ONE WAS DRIVING A VEHICLE, ONE WAS ON THE STREET.

SO IN DEFENDING ITS TACTICS, DHS HAS SAID REPEATEDLY I. C. E. OFFICERS ARE FACING AN 8,000% INCREASE IN DEATH THREATS AND MORE THAN 1300% INCREASE IN ASSAULTS WHILE CARRYING OUT ARRESTS.

AND SO THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT THEIR MISSION IS INCREASINGLY DANGEROUS, AND THAT IS WHAT IES THESE TACTICS.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> THIS IS WHERE BEING A RESEARCHER HELPS A LITTLE BIT, BECAUSE WHENEVER WE SEE NUMBERS LIKE THAT, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT WE MEAN BY THOSE NUMBERS.

HOW ARE WE DEFINING THOSE NUMBERS, RIGHT.

WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 8000% INCREASE IN DEATH THREATS, IS THAT AT AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL, OR ARE THEY PULLING COMMENTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT ARE NOT ACTUALLY DIRECTED AT AGENTS SPECIFICALLY, BUT HAVE SOME RHETORICAL FLARE, RIGHT.

THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE TWO THINGS, ESPECIALLY WITH WHAT WE CONSIDER TO BE A DEATH THREAT.

IN A COUNTRY WITH A FIRST AMENDMENT, WE CERTAINLY HAVE THE RIGHT TO CRITICIZE, INCLUDING IN VERY HARSH TERMS, THE WAY GOVERNMENT ACTS.

NOW, IN NO WAY AM I SUPPORTING THREATS OF VIOLENCE OR WISHES OF VIOLENCE, RIGHT.

POLITICAL VIOLENCE OR INTERPERSONAL VIOLENCE IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD NOT CONDONE AND CONDEMN, AND I DO CONDEMN VERY STRONGLY.

BUT THEN THEY SAY AN 8000% INCREASE IN DEATH THREATS, I'D LIKE TO SEE EXACTLY WHAT THEY MEAN AND HOW THEY'RE DEVELOPING THAT NUMBER.

THE SAME THING WITH ASSAULTS.

IF SOMEONE IS DRIVING AWAY FROM A TRAFFIC STOP, AND THEY PASS BY AN I. C. E. VEHICLE, OR IF AN I. C. E. AGENT HAS TOE STEP OUT OF THE WAY BECAUSE THEY WERE ASSISTANTING IN FRONT OF THE CAR, IN A POSITION THEY NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN, IS THAT REALLY AN ASSAULT?

OR IS THAT INTERACTION THAT IS SORT OF INCIDENTAL TO THE NATURE OF THE ENCOUNTER, RIGHT.

SOMETHING THAT IS EFFECTIVELY ONE, ENTIRELY AVOIDABLE HAD OFFICERS USED GOOD TACTICS, AND TWO, IS REALLY MORE OF AN ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE.

HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

IF ICE AGENTS ARE ARRESTING SOMEONE, AND THAT PERSON IS RESISTING AND PULLING AWAY, IS THAT AN ASSAULT?

BECAUSE IF THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN, A 1300% INCREASE IN ASSAULTS, THEN THAT MIGHT ACTUALLY JUST GO ALONG WITH AN INCREASE IN OPERATIONS, RIGHT.

THE MORE OPERATIONS YOU HAVE, THE MORE RESISTANCE YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE.

AND IF YOU'RE CLASSIFYING THAT AS AN ASSAULT, THAT FEELS KIND OF INEVITABLE.

SO GIVEN THIS ADMINISTRATION'S HISTORY, I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I AM AT LEAST SOMEWHAT SKEPTICAL OF NUMBERS THAT THEY THROW OUT WITHOUT SOME SPECIFIC DEFINITIONS AND METHODOLOGY TO SUPPORT THEM.

>> YOU ACTUALLY WROTE ABOUT IMMIGRATION AGENCY TACTICS EARLIER THIS YEAR.

EARLIER THIS YEAR, THERE WERE SOME VERY HIGH PROFILE INCIDENTS WHERE TWO UNITED STATES CITIZENS WERE KILLED IN ENCOUNTERS WITH I. C. E. , NEITHER OF WHOM WAS THE TARGET OF AN I. C. E. OPERATION.

YOU SAID THAT ONE OF THE BIGGEST DEPARTURES FROM PROFESSIONAL POLICING IS THE FAILURE OF AGENCY LEADERSHIP TO RESPOND RESPONSIBLY TO CRITICAL INCIDENTS.

TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF CRITICAL INCIDENTS LIKE OFFICER- INVOLVED SHOOTINGS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND THAT MEANS WE HAVE A PRETTY WELL INFORMED BODY OF PROFESSIONAL KNOWLEDGE AMONG POLICE EXECUTIVES AND AMONG FOLKS WHO LOOK AT AND STUDY THIS FIELD ABOUT HOW AN AGENCY SHOULD RESPOND.

AND MAYBE MORE IMPORTANTLY, HOW AN AGENCY SHOULDN'T RESPOND.

FOR EXAMPLE, IT TAKES A WHILE TO GENERATE EVEN GOOD PRELIMINARY FACTS ABOUT AN INCIDENT.

AND THEN IT TAKES A LITTLE LONGER TO CHECK THOSE FACTS OUT, RIGHT?

IN A SORT OF TRUST BUT VERIFY APPROACH, YOU DON'T WANT AN AGENCY HEAD TO BE PROVIDING INFORMATION TO THE PUBLIC THAT IS MAYBE SPECULATIVE.

YOU DON'T WANT THEM TO CHARACTERIZE INFORMATION BEFORE WE ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THAT INFORMATION IS, AND WE HAVE A CHANCE TO UNDERSTAND THE FULL CONTEXT.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT MONTHS AND MONTHS FOR A COMPLETE INVESTIGATION, BUT YOU DO HAVE TO WAIT SOME PERIOD OF TIME UNTIL YOU FEEL PRETTY CONFIDENT IN THE NATURE OF THE INFORMATION THAT YOU'RE PROVIDING.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM I. C. E. THIS YEAR HAS BEEN EXTREMELY CONFIDENT, DEFINITIVE STATEMENTS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AND ABOUT HOW TO CHARACTERIZE WHAT HAPPENED.

THAT IS THESE ARE THE FACTS, AND OFFICERS ACTED APPROPRIATELY IN THIS SITUATION.

AND OFTEN THOSE STATEMENTS HAVE COME WITHIN HOURS OF THE CRITICAL INCIDENT.

IT'S JUST NOT CREDIBLE TO THINK THAT THERE IS THE TYPE OF ROBUST, METHODICAL INVESTIGATION THAT WE NEED TO COME TO THAT KIND OF CONCLUSION IN THAT TIME FRAME.

AND WHEN THOSE STATEMENTS HAVE BEEN OFFERED AND THEN BEEN DISCREDITED WITH PUBLICLY AVAILABLE VIDEO, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT SHOWS OFTEN PRETTY CLEARLY THAT WHAT'S BEING SAID DID NOT HAPPEN IN THE WAY THAT IT'S BEING DESCRIBED, RATHER THAN TAKING AN APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF BACKTRACKING AND SAYING WE ARE CONTINUING TO LOOK INTO THIS, THIS IS AN EMERGING INVESTIGATION, WE'RE STILL UNDERSTANDING AND GATHERING THE FACTS, WHAT YOU SEE IS STATEMENTS DOUBLING DOWN ON THE INITIAL DESCRIPTION AND CHARACTERIZATION.

THAT'S JUST NOT PROFESSIONAL LEADERSHIP.

>> PROFESSOR SETH STOUGHTON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

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