WELCOME BACK.

UPPER PENINSULA SENATOR ED McBROOM IS GUEST, AND THE COVID NUMBERS ARE OFF THE CHARTS.

NOW WHAT.

CHUCK STOKES AND KYLE MELINN AS WE GET THE INSIDE OUT "OFF THE RECORD."

> PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING: BIDS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MITCHIGAN.

LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN's ROAD TO TOP 10.

THIS EDITION OF OFF OF THE WORD WITH TIM SKUBICK.

>> HERE WE ARE WITH ANOTHER EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IN THE LEAD STORY AS WE TALK ABOUT COVID WITH OUR PANELISTS.

LET ME SHARE SOME NUMBERS IN IF YOU ARE IN THE AGE GROUP THE 30 TO 39, HOSPITALIZATION RAISES ON COVID HAVE GONE UP 630 PERCENT.

IF YOU ARE BETWEEN THE AGES OF 40 AND 49 AN 800 PERCENT ON INCREASE IN HOSPITALIZATIONS.

THESE NUMBERS ARE RIDICULOUS.

ARE THEY NOT?

>> THEY ARE NOT GOOD.

FOR THE PAST REALLY MORE THAN A WEEK, WE HAVE BEEN WATCHING AND WONDERING, IS THIS A THIRD SURGE?

WE HAVE HEARD DR. KHALDOUN SAYING BASICALLY THAT'S WHAT WE ARE WATCHING FOR.

IT APPEARS IF YOU ARE LOOKING AT THESES NUMBERS THAT THAT'S WHERE WE ARE AT.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI TALKED ABOUT MICHIGAN RECENTLY, SORT OF NAMED US.

RIGHT?

WE NOW HAVE SOME OF THE HIGHEST NUMBERS YET AGAIN IN THE NATION, WHICH IS UNFORTUNATE WRITE?

BECAUSE IT REMINDS ME ALMOST OF A YEAR AGO WHEN MICHIGAN WAS SORT OF IT HE TOP.

RIGHT?

WHERE YOU DON'T WANT TO BE.

AND WE WERE ABLE TO GET THOSE NUMBERS DOWN AND UNFORTUNATELY, THEY ARE GOING BACK UP.

AS YOU NOTED, TIM, WE SHOULD BE AWARE OF WHERE THOSE AGE GROUPS ARE.

RIGHT?

IT LOOKS LIKE, IF YOU LOOK AT THE DATA THAT IT'S FOR AGES THAT LIKELY HAVE NOT BEEN ELIGIBLE FOR VACCINES YET.

SO THOSE OVER 65, THOSE OVER 80, WHO HAVE BEEN ELIGIBLE TO NOW GET THEIR FIRST, MAYBE EVEN SECOND, DOSES, THOSE HOSPITALIZATIONS AREN'T HAPPENING.

IT'S THE YOUNGER FOLKS WHO, YOU KNOW, NOT UNTIL APRIL 5TH WILL BE FULLY ELIGIBLE, 16 AND ABOVE FOR THEIR FIRST VACCINES.

>> CHUCK, NOT TO BE AN ALARMIST BUT THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF CASES WE HAVE HAD MAZ BEEN 5,900.

THIS WEEK, WE HAVE HIT 5200.

WE ARE APPROACHING THAT NUMBER AS WELL.

YOUR REACTION, PLEASE?

>> YOU KNOW, THERE IS SOME IRONY IN THIS.

WHILE THE NUMBERS ARE GOING UP IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF COVID CASES AND THE NUMBER OF DEATHS, AS ZOE HAS ALLUDED TO, YOU HAVE THE NUMBER OF VAC SANCTIONS GOING UP, BOTH NATIONALLY AND IN THE STATE.

YOU KNOW, LOOK AT FORT FIELD, THE LARGEST VACCINATION SITE IN THE STATE.

IT'S MOVING SMOOTHLY.

PEOPLE ARE LINING UP.

IT'S A RACE AGAINST THE VARIANTS.

THE OTHER THING WE DIDN'T MENTION, HERE IN MICHIGAN, WE ARE RANKED PRETTY HIGH IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF OTHER VARIANTS IN THE STATE.

SO THAT'S ALSO PLAYING A ROLE IN ALL OF THIS.

IT'S A RACE AGAINST TIME.

IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL OF THIS, YOU HAVE THIS TUG OF WAR BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE AND THE LEGISLATURE OVER FEDERAL FUNDS, YOU KNOW, WHETHER THEY ARE GOING TO K THROUGH 12 SCHOOLS OR THEY ARE GOING TO OTHER AREAS TO BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, DEPARTMENTS TO BE ABLE TO TRACE THE VARIANTS.

SO YOU'VE GOT A LOT OF DYNAMICS GOING ON HERE AND THIS IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S A CRAP SHOOT AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE WHO IS GOING TO WIN THIS, BUT IT'S A LITTLE SCARY.

>> KYLE, THE GOVERNOR WAS ASKED THE QUESTION, WHAT ABOUT A LOCKDOWN AGAIN?

AND SHE BASICALLY SAID, YU KNOW, WE ARE NOT THERE YET.

WE'RE LOOKING AT EVERYTHING THAT WE COULD GET THERE YET.

WHAT DOES THE GOVERNOR DO IN.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU'VE GOT TO WONDER IF AT A CERTAIN POINT SHE CALLS THE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE's BLUFF AND INVITES THEM TO THE TABLE AND SAY, HEY, THESE ARE THE NUMBERS.

ARE YOU WITH ME IN TRYING TO GET THESE NUMBERS IN CONTROL?

AND DO THEY PUT IN NEW RESTRICTIONS?

YOU KNOW, YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE LEGISLATION THAT THE SENATE PASSED JUST ON THURSDAY.

AND IF WE WERE UNDER THIS LEGISLATION ON WHEN RESTAURANTS WERE TO BE RE-OPENED, WE WOULD BE EXACTLY WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW.

>> UH-HUH.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, YOU WONDER FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT.

THEY WANT TO BE AT THE TABLE.

SHE IS IN A BAD POSITION THAT IF SHE TIGHTENS THE SCREWS ON RESTRICTIONS, SHE ACTUALLY LOOKS BAD.

IF THE REPUBLICANS COME TO THE TABLE AND AGREE WITH HER -- YOU KNOW WHAT?

ACTUALLY, WE HAVE TO.

THAT COULD GIVE HER COVER.

WE WILL SEE IF THAT'S A DIRECTION SHE WANTS TO GO.

>> IT LET'S THROW INTO THE SOUP A I KNOW THIS CALLED SPRING BREAK BREAK.

>> YES.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING, OF COURSE, IS WHEN FOLKS ARE TALKING ABOUT THESE SCHOOL OUTBREAKS, WHEN YOU DIG INTO THE NUMBERS, THE MAJORITY OF THOSE SCHOOL OUTBREAKS ARE COLLEGES.

MITCH STATE UNIVERSITY AND SPRING BREAK IS HAPPENING FOR YOUNGER KIDS.

AND WE ARE HEARING OF FOLKS DECIDES ING TO STILL GO TO FLORIDA WHERE VERY FEW RESTRICTIONS ARE.

TWO THINGS I WANT TO KNOTE, THOUGH.

ABSOLUTELY WHAT CHUCK SAID IS THAT MICHIGAN SEEMS LIKE WE, A LOT OF THESE NUMBERS ARE FROM THE VARIANTS.

AND FORM, WITH HOW TESTING IS WORKING RIGHT NOW WITHIN THE STATE, WE ARE NOT ABLE, IN REALTIME WHEN WE GET THOSE TESTS TO KNOW WHETHER IT IS COVID-19 OR WHETHER IT IS A VARIANT.

RIGHT?

THE V 1 '117.

THERE IS UNFORTUNATELY NOT A LOT OF DATA THAT CAN SHOW BUT THAT IS SORT OF THE THEORY THAT THIS VARIANT THAT IS COMING AND HITTING MICHIGAN NOW AND WHAT WE UNDERSTAND IT SEEMS FROM VIROLOGISTS IS THAT THIS VARIANT SPREADS EVEN QUICKER.

IF YOU ARE HAVING SCHOOLS AND RESTAURANTS, IT'S STRONGER.

EXACTLY TO KYLE's POINT, THIS IS SORT OF THE FASCINATING THING.

RIGHT?

ABOUT THIS DANCE BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND GOVERNOR WHITMER IS IF THESE BILLS HAD BEEN PAST, MAYBE WHITMER MAY WANT TO SIGN THEM BECAUSE IT WOULD GIVE HER SOME COVER.

SHE WOULD BE ABLE TO SAY, IT'S NOT ME.

IT'S NOT MY DATA.

HERE IS THE LEGISLATION.

IT'S LIKE KYLE SAID WITH POSITIVITY RATES INCREASING, SOME OF THESE CAPACITIES WOULD COME BACK IN TO PLACE THAT WERE OPENED EARLIER THIS YEAR.

>> KYLE, LET'S TALK ABOUT SPORTS FOR A SECOND.

DO YOU REMEMBER THE RALLY ON THE CAPITOL STEPS IN ALL OF THE PARENTS THAT SHOWED UP AND THEY HAD THE ATHLETES WHO SAID, WE CAN DO THIS SAFELY.

WE CAN TAKE CARE OF THESE KIDS.

IS THAT REVERBRATING IN A NEGATIVE WAY, OR WERE THEY WRITE?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE ANY INSIDE KNOWLEDGE AS TO WHAT THESE NUMBERS LOOK LIKE.

ALL WE KNOW IS THAT THE NUMBERS ARE UP.

HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS WERE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE.

I THINK THAT THERE IS JUST A GENERAL FEELING OUT THERE THAT WE ARE SO CLOSE TO THE FINISH LINE THAT PEOPLE ARE LETTING THEIR GUARDS DOWN THAT THE VACCINES ARE AVAILABLE.

PEOPLE ARE GETTING VACCINES AND THE COVID PANDEMIC IS OVER.

IT'S NOT OVER.

THE PANDEMIC IS JUST NOT OVER YET.

AS MUCH AS WE WANT IT TO BE SO, IT'S NOT.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING EITHER WITH THE SPORTS OR THE RESTAURANTS OR WHATEVER BUSINESS ENTITY YOU ARE IN, OPENING UP OFFICES, WE WANT IT SO BAD THAT WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN ON OUR OWN AND WE CAN'T th.

I THINK THAT'S THE SITUATION WE ARE IN WHETHER IT'S HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS OR WHATEVER.

WE ARE ALMOST THERE BUT WE CAN'T WALK OR CRAWL TO THE FINISH LINE.

WE HAVE TO RUN TO THE FINISH LINE.

THAT'S NOT HAD HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

>> THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY ARE GOING TO BE TESTING THESE STUDENTS WHO ARE MAKING SPORTS BEFORE PRACTICE AND BEFORE GAMES IF THEY CAN GET EVERYBODY ON THAT PROGRAM.

THAT'S A PLUS.

AND ALSO, THE VARIANT IS PRETTY MUCH CONFINED TO MICHIGAN PRISONS RIGHT NOW.

THE BULK OF THE NUMBERS ARE DOWN THERE.

CHUCK, I WANT TO TAKE KIND OF A SIDE-BAR STORY TO THIS COVID STORY WITH THE MICHIGAN SENATE THIS WEEK OFFERING $250,000 TO LOCAL PROSECUTORS TO LINE UP AND INVESTIGATE THE GOVERNOR ON HER NURSING HOME POLICIES.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE?

>> NO.

I HAVEN'T AND IT'S AN INTERESTING TWIST ON TO IT.

IT'S SORT OF LIKE TAKING THE BACKDOOR APPROACH TO WHAT MANY IN THE SENATE SIDE AND ON THE G.O.P.

SIDE ARE THINKING THERE MAY BE SOMETHING THERE, BUT THE PROOF IS NOT THERE YET.

AT LEAST IT HASN'T COME TO LIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THEY WENT TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND ASKED HER TO MAKE THE INVESTIGATION.

SHE SAID IT DIDN'T WARRANT AN INVESTIGATION.

THERE WASN'T ENOUGH EVIDENCE THERE AND SHE WASN'T JUST GOING ON A WITCH HUNT.

SO THEY TOOK AN END AROUND AND WENT TO THE SENATE AND THE SENATE SAID, OKAY.

WE ARE GOING TO HAVE THIS MONEY OUT THERE TO GO TO THE INDIVIDUAL PROSECUTORS IF THEY WANT TO TAKE UP THIS INVESTIGATION.

NOW, PETE LACEDO WHO USED TO BE A MEMBER OF THE SENATE NOW A McCOMB COUNTY PROSECUTOR.

HE HAS BEEN VOCAL ON THIS AND ASKED PEOPLE IN HIS COUNTY THAT IF YOU KNOW OF SOMETHING OR YOU THINK THAT PERHAPS YOUR LOVED ONE MAY HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THIS NURSING HOME POLICY, LET US KNOW.

WE WILL LOOK INTO IT.

BUT THIS IS ALL SPECULATION AT THIS POINT.

THERE HAS NOT BEEN ANY DIRECT TIE TO PROVE THAT THE POLICIES THAT THE GOVERNOR HAD ARE TIED TO WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE COVID DEATHS AND THEN THIS SORT OF GETS INTO THIS WHOLE THING WITH ROBERT GORDON WHICH I AM SURE WE WILL TALK ABOUT, TRYING TO SEE IF THERE IS A LINK THERE BETWEEN DISCUSSIONS THAT HE MAY HAVE HAD INTERNALLY AND PRIVATELY WITH THE GOVERNOR ABOUT THE POLICY.

SO WE WILL HAVE TO SEE WHERE IT LEADS.

BUT RIGHT NOW, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO MAKE THE LINK YET.

BUT IT MIGHT.

>> Z, WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> IT SEEMS AS THOUGH IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF THERE WAS ACTUA LY EVIDENCE BEFORE YOU START THESE SORT OFFICE OF INVESTIGATIONS.

>> JUST A SECOND.

LET ME INTERRUPT.

OKAY.

ISN'T AN INVESTIGATION, IN PART, TO FIND OUT IF THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT SHOULD BE -- ISN'T THAT WHAT AN INVESTIGATION IS?

DO I HAVE TO GO TO THE JUDGE AND SAY I'VE GOT THIS EVIDENCE.

CONVICT THEM.

EXPLAIN.

CAN YOU SQUARE THOSE?

>> SO I THINK WHAT I WOULD SAY TO THAT IS THAT, SURE.

IF THERE IS ACTUAL CONCERNS -- AND THIS ACTUALLY GOES A LITTLE TO ELECTION REFORM THAT I THINK WE WILL TALK ABOUT AS WELL, THEN ABSOLUTELY.

PUT THE MONEY IN AND BE ABLE TO FIND THE DATA.

BUT PETE LACEDO, HIMSELF, WHEN ASKED IN A WONDERFUL ARTICLE THAT I WOULD SUGGEST EVERYONE TO READ BY NY BASICALLY SAID, YEAH.

I DON'T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE.

I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AN FOR IT.

THIS IS WHAT SUDDENLY WE ARE GOING TO BE SPENDING TAX MONEY DOLLARS IN FOR ANY KIND OF INVESTIGATION BECAUSE SIMPLY SOMEONE WOULD LIKE TO LOOK AROUND TO TRY TO FIND SOMETHING.

I COULD LIST AT THE TOP OF MY HEAD FIVE OR SIX KIND OF INVESTIGATIONS TO GO INTO.

THAT BEING SAID, ABSOLUTELY, FOLKS ARE LOOKING AT THIS POINT INTO THE ISSUE OF NURSING HOMES.

BUT COMPARING IT TO WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW YORK WHERE DATA ACTUALLY WAS FALSIFIED AND DATA WAS ACTUALLY HIDDEN, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN EQUATE THOSE TWO THINGS.

>> KYLE, SQUARE THIS WITH ME.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WANTED TO INVESTIGATE JOHN ENGLER's ROLL IN THE LARRY NASSAR THING ON CAMPUS.

SHE HAD NO EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING BUT SHE WANTED TO INVESTIGATE HIM AND TALK TO HIM.

HOW CAN SHE NOW SATISFY I AM NOT GOING TO DO THIS TO THE GOVERNOR BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ANY EVIDENCE?

OR AM I MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING?

>> I THINK THIS HAS BECOME SO POLITICAL THAT I DON'T KNOW IF DANA NESS EL FEELS LIKE THE ISSUE IS LEGITIMATE.

REPUBLICANS HAVE GOT THEMSELVES -- I THINK THEY FEEL LIKE A REALLY GOOD ISSUE THAT THEY ARE WORKING RIGHT NOW.

AND THAT'S WHERE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS.

OVER IN THE HOUSE, I MEAN YOU MENTIONED THE 1.25 MILLION DOLLAR THAT THE SENATE PUT ON THE TABLE.

>> YEAH.

>> ONE OF THE LEADERS IN THE HOUSE IS UP THE -- HAS UPPED THE ANTE.

>> $5 MILLION.

THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'VE GOT A GOOD ISSUE HERE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO KEEP EXPLOITING.

AND UNTIL THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DOESN'T BELIEVE THIS IS A POLITICAL ISSUE, SHE IS NOT GOING TO TOUCH IT.

>> CHUCK, WE MENTIONS THE ELECTION REFORM STUFF.

HERE WE GO AGAIN AS IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH ANGST IN THIS TOWN OF ONE AGAINST ANOTHER, ELECTION RE FORM, RS ON WINL SIDE AND DS AND OTHERS ON THE OTHER SIDE.

WHAT'S GOING ON THERE?

>> NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

THIS IS A QUESTION OF VOTER EXPRESSION VERSUS VOTER INTEGRITY.

IT CAN DEPENDS ON WHICH SIDE YOU ARE LINING UP WITH.

ALL OF THIS COMES AFTER THE ELECTION.

DEMOCRATS WILL ARGUE THE ONLY REASON THAT THESE REFRMS ARE BEING PUT INTO PLACEORMS ARE BEING PUT INTO PLACE HERE IN MICHIGAN AS WELL AS OTHER STATES BECAUSE THIS IS A NATIONAL EFFORT IN THE BATTLE GROUND STATES IS COMING OFF OF THE -- WHAT WAS SDMROVEN DISPROVEN THAT THIS ELECTION WAS BASED ON A LIE AND THERE WAS FRAUD IN THERE.

IT WE WANT TO ALL OF THE COURTS AND THAT HASN'T BEEN PROVEN.

BUT THEY ARE SAYING THIS STILL IS A PROBLEM IN THE SYSTEM.

THE DEMOCRATS ARE LOOKING AT THE OTHER SIDE AND SAYING, WAIT A MINUTE.

IF YOU'RE INSTITUTING WHETHER IT'S VOTER ID CARDS OR STOPPING PEOPLE FROM DROPPING OFF BALLOTS AT 5:00 O'CLOCK AT THESE VARIOUS BOXES, WE HAVE JUST SEEN THE HIGHEST VOTER TURNOUT IN THE STATE BY, 5.5 MILLION VOTERS.

3 MILLION OF THOSE WERE ABSENTEE BALLOTS.

OF COURSE THAT'S THE PROBLEM THERE IS THAT SO MANY PEOPLE CAME INTO THE SYSTEM COMING OFF OF THE 2018 DECISION THAT VOTERS MADE ACROSS THIS STATE AND SO, YOU'VE GOT THIS TUG OF WAR, CLASSIC TUG OF WAR BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS AND WHETHER OR NOT YOU ARE MAKING IT EASY OR YOU ARE MAKING IT HARDER FOR PEOPLE TO GET OUT AND VOTE.

AND THERE IS STILL 30% OF PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T VOTE.

SO, YOU KNOW, THIS IS GOING TO PROBABLY END UP ON THE GOVERNOR'S DESK, AND SHE IS PROBABLY GOING TO VETO IF NOT ALL OF IT, A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF IT UNLESS HE THEY CAN COME TO SOME KIND OF COMPROMISE ON SOME OF THE THINGS.

IT'S A 39-BILL PACKAGE.

THERE IS A LOT IN THERE?

>> THROUGH THE MAGIC OF JOOM, WE GO TO THE UPPER PENINSULA WHERE WE ASSUME SENATOR IT'S NOT SNOWING P THERE, SIR.

>> IT'S NOT TODAY, BUT I THINK IT MIGHT LATER THIS WEEKEND.

>> THANK YOU FOR BEING ON THE PROGRAM.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO SUBPOENA ROBERT GORDON TO APPEAR TO TALK ABOUT HIS ROLE IN ALL OF THIS STUFF, SIR.

>> NOT IN MY COMMITTEE.

I AM NOT PLANNING TO DO THAT.

>> WHY NOT?

OTHERS ARE CHATTERING ABOUT THAT, SIR.

>> I HAD ROBERT GORDON BEFORE MY COMMITTEE SEVERAL TIMES, AND I HAVEN'T FELT THERE WAS A COMPELLING REASON TOBLY HIM BACK AGAIN.

>> YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO ASK HIM QUESTIONS ABOUT THE GOVERNOR'S NURSING HOME POLICIES.

>> WE DID VERY EXTENSIVELY WHEN HE CAME BEFORE THE COMMITTEE BEFORE.

>> DID YOU FIND A SMOKING GUN?

>> NOT AT THAT TIME.

>> DO YOU SUSPECT A SMOKING GUN IS THERE?

>> PERSONALLY, I AM PRETTY SURE THAT THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE .1.

>> KYLE, JUMP IN.

>> SO THE PROSECUTOR IN McCOMB COUNTY YOUR FRIEND PETE LACEDO IS TAKING A LOOK AROUND GETTING TESTIMONY, GETTING AFFIDAVITS FROM FOLKS WHOSE LOVED ONES DIED IN NURSING HOMES.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THE GOVERNOR'S POLICIES CONTRIBUTED TO THEIR LOVED ONE's DEATH.

DO YOU NOT AGREE WITH THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THERE IS SIGNIFICANCE REASON TO BE CONCERNED, BUT I KNOW FROM OUR INTERVIEWS WITH DIRECTOR GORDON, THE ABILITY TO KEEP STATISTICS WHEN ALL OF THIS BEGAN IN MARCH, APRIL, INTO MAY, WAS VERY POOR.

DIRECTOR GORDON, YOU KNOW, ADMITTED TO THAT SEVERAL TIMES IN FRONT OF THE COMMITTEE.

OUR ABILITY TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN DIFFERENT TYPES OF FACILITIES AND KEEP STATISTICS BETWEEN THEMS WAS ALSO VERY POOR.

I THINK PERSONALLY, I LOOK AT THE RULE THAT WAS PUT IN PLACE AND THE DISCUSSIONS I HAVE HAD PERSONALLY WITH FRIENDS WHO WORK AT NURSING HOMES AND PEOPLE WHO HAD LOVED ONES IN THE UP, I THINK THERE WAS A PROBLEM.

I THINK IT MADE A PROBLEM.

I THINK THE POLICY WAS DETRIMENTAL AND PERHAPS LED TO MORE DEATHS THAN A DIFFERENT POLICY WOULD HAVE.

I DON'T THINK THAT CAN BE PROVEN AND I DON'T THINK THERE WAS NECESSARILY SOME SORT OF PURPOSEFUL NEGLIGENCE OR MALFEASANCE THAT WENT ON THAT LED TO THAT.

>> ZOE.

GO AHEAD, KYLE.

>> I WAS GOING TO FOLLOW UP DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT PETE LACEDO IS DOING IS POLITICAL.

>> NO.

I THINK OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWPOINTS THAN I DO ON THIS AND THINK THAT THEY CAN GET THOSE DATA POINTS AND A CASE WERE IT'S BASED ON ENOUGH PERSONAL STORIES.

I ALWAYS FELT THAT IF I COULD HAVE GOTTEN FOLKS WHO WORKED IN NURSING HOMES AND PEOPLE WHO HAD FAMILY STORIES TO COME FORWARD AND TALK TO THE COMMITTEE THAT WE COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY GONE FURTHER INTO THE PROCESS AND IF WHETHER IT'S MR. LACEDO OR OTHERS THAT CAN DO IT THAT, THAT'S 15.

I COULDN'T GET THOSE TO COME BEFORE THE COMMITTEE AND OFFER TESTIMONY.

SO WE AS FAR AS WE COULD GO ON THIS AND MY COMMITTEE SUBPOENAED ADDITIONAL RECORDS AS THEY COME THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT.

I BELIEVE IF THERE IS A SMOKING GUN ANYWHERE, THE ONLY PLACE WE WILL FIND IT IS IN CONTEMPORANEOUS COMMUNICATIONS IN THE DEPARTMENT SO WE ARE LACKING THROUGH THOSE.

I HAVEN'T STOPPED WORKING THIS ISSUE.

BUT UNLESS WE FIND SOMETHING IN THOSE RECORDS OR UNLESS THERE IS SUDDENLY A HUGE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO COME FORWARD AND OFFER THIS EVIDENCE, THIS FIRST-HAND ACCOUNT EVIDENCE, I DON'T SEE ANY BENEFITS IN I DIDN'TING DIRECTOR GORDON IN TO HEAR HIM SAY WHAT HE SAID BEFORE.

>> JOE?

>> YEAH.

I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT THE NUMBER OF DEATHS IS HORRIFIC.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, MICHIGAN WAS ACTUALLY BELOW THE NATIONAL AVERAGE IN NURSING HOME DEATHS DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME.

SENATOR, I WOULD LIKE TO MOVE ON TO, THE 39 BILLS.

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW AVERAGE ON SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN THERE WASN'T SOMETHING THERE.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE NUMBERS.

LIKE I SAID, WE DIDN'T KEEP GOOD STATISTICS.

EVEN THE DIRECTOR SAID, FOR THREE MONTHS.

>> WE KEPT VERY, VERY BAD STATISTICS.

REMEMBER, TOO, WHAT HAPPENED IN NEW YORK IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID, ZOE.

THEY COVERED IT UP.

THAT'S WHAT'S BURNING GOVERNOR CUOMO RIGHT NOW IS THE COVER UP.

>> AND THAT'S WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE THESE PROSECUTOR POSSIBLY, IF THEY ARE ABLE TO GET MONEY, WOULD BE TRYING TO DO AND PETE LACEDO, FORMER STATE SENATOR IS MOVING ON TO THE ELECTION BILLS OF WHICH YOU ARE A SPONSOR OF SOME AND, ALSO, WE'LL BE SEEING -- WILL BE SEEING MANY IN YOUR COMMITTEE, 39 BILLS.

SO, I HAVE GOT -- I DON'T KNOW -- MAYBE A DOZEN RELEASES FROM DIFFERENT REPUBLICAN SENATORS THROUGHOUT THE DAY WHEN THESE WERE RELEASED.

ALL OF THEM SAID THAT FOLKS HAVE BEEN HEARING CONCERNS DIRECTLY FROM THEIR CONSTITUENTS AND FROM THEIR VOTERS, BUT NOWHERE IN ANY OF THE RELEASES WERE ACTUAL EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND OF ELECTION FRAUD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK -- CAN WHY COULD YOU THINK ALL OF THESE THE VOTERS, CONSTITUENTS SAY THERE IS AN ISSUE BUT YET NOTHING SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN FOUND IN MICHIGAN INCLUDING THE SECRETARY OF STATE DOING AN AUDIT AND SAYING THERE WAS NO WIDESPREAD ABUSE?

>> THE SO THE -- NOT EVERY BILL IN THIS PACKAGE, IN FACT, I WOULD SAY IN MY ESTIMATION, LESS THAN A MAJORITY OF THESE BILLS ARE ISSUES THAT DEAL DIRECTLY WITH FRAUD ISSUES.

AND AS MY COMMITTEE LOOKED INTO THE ELECTION AND SPENT HUNDREDS OF HOURS DEALING WITH THIS OVER THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS, WE FOUND A LOT OF ISSUES THAT DEAL WITH PROCESS, WITH ANTIQUATED LAWS, WITH, AS A COMMENT EARLIER, THE PROBLEMS THAT COME FROM MERKELING PROPS 2 AND 3 INTO THE WAY WE DO ELECTIONS NOW, THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS TO AMEND AND REFORM HERE AND TO SAY THAT THESE ARE ALL GENERATED BY SOME -- BY JUST ABOUT FRAUD, I DON'T THINK, IS A FAIR EVALUATION BASED UPON THE WORK I DID IN THE COMMITTEE.

>> SO THAT'S WHAT YOUR REPUBLICAN FELLOW SENATORS SAID, THOUGH, IN THEIR STATEMENTS.

SO THOSE STATEMENTS, YOU THINK ARE INACCURATE THEN IN.

>> NO.

I WOULD SAY WHAT YOU ARE RELAYING TO ME THEY SAID WAS A LOT OF CITIZENS EXPRESSED CONCERNS ABOUT THE ELECTION.

I THINK THAT THAT'S VERY ACCURATE.

I HAVE HEARD THOSE CONCERNS, TOO.

I HAVE BEEN MEETING WITH ASSISTANTS ALL OVER THE STATE OF MICHIGAN TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE COMMITTEE FOUND, WHAT THE COMMITTEE DIDN'T FIND AND SHARING WITH THEM THAT THERE IS REAL ROOM FOR CHANGES, AMENDMENTS, REFORMS TO OUR ELECTION LAW, SOME OF WHICH ARE DIRECTLY GOING TO IMPACT VOTER INTEGRITY ISSUES AND MAINTAIN THE SECURITY OF OUR ELECTIONS.

PROCESS MISTAKES DON'T HAPPEN AGAIN THAT LEAD TO PEOPLE BELIEVING SOMETHING FRAUDULENT THAT WAS GOING ON.

>> SENATOR WHEN YOU HEAR ORGANIZATIONS LIKE VOTERS, NOT POLITICIANS OR ACLU OR DEMOCRATIC LEADERS SAY THE SMASH DISCRIMINATORY TYPE OF VOTING - RULES, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT IN >>CIAL I THINK THAT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE.

I WOULD -- I GUESS MY NEXT QUESTION ALWAYS HAS TO BE, WELL, WHAT IN HERE DO YOU FIND PARTICULARLY CONNECTED TO SOME SORT OF RACIAL MOTIVATION OR VOTER EXPRESSION MOTIVATION BECAUSE THAT'S, I MEAN, MOST OF THESE BILLS GENERATED OUT OF THE WORK MY COMMITTEE HAS DONE.

YOU WILL SEE THOSE CONNECTIONS WHEN WE ISSUE OUR REPORTS, SOON.

SO, I RADIO WAYJECT THAT.

THAT'S NOT THE MOTIVATION I HAD.

WE WANT TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO ACCESS THEIR SWROT.

IT'S GOING GO WHAT MICHIGANDERS HE SAID THEY WANTED IN 2014.

>> I THINK THAT'S A CARELESS HANDLING OF THE BILLS.

MANY OF THESE BILLS ARE DIRECTLY MAKING IT SIMPLER TO VOTE OR MAKING VOTER ACCESS EASIER.

BUT I SEE ALWAYS HAVE TO PUSH BACK TO SOME DEGREE, TOO.

I HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, PARTY IN THE LEGISLATURE HERE FOR 10 YEARS AND I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENT ELECTION BILLS OVER THE YEARS.

WHATEVER IT WAS.

WHEN I LOOK AT THESE BILLS, I AM LIKE, WHERE IN HERE DO WE SEE ONE PARTY SAYING IF WE COULD JUST GET THIS DONE, THAT'S GOING TO HELP OUR SIDE JUST THAT LITTLE BIT.

AND I DON'T SEE THAT AND THAT WASN'T MY MOTIVATION IN THESE BILLS AND SO.

I LOOK AT A LOT OF THESE BILLS AS SIMPLIFYING ADDITIONAL ACCESS, BUT I ALSO HAVE TO SAY THAT AT WHAT LEVEL DO WE COMPLETELY ELIMINATE EVERY SINGLE BARRIER THAT IS PUT IN PLACE AS A SECURITY MEASURE?

PROBLEM PROPS 2 AND 3 DIDN'T SAY SEPTEMBER OUT UNSOLICITED ONES.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE TOOK THAT ON HERTZ TO GO FORWARD WITH.

I THINK AND THROUGH MY INVESTIGATION, I BELIEVE, THAT IT IS A SIGNIFICANT VULNERABILITY TO THE SYSTEM AND THE HURDLE THAT YOU CREATE BY SAYING YOU HAVE TO REQUEST THAT APPLICATION GORE GET ON A 3ER789 LUS THAT RESENDS IT TO YOU IS SUCH A VERY SMALL HURDLE BUT YET PROVIDES THE SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF SECURITY.

WHAT HURDLES WOULD PEOPLE SUPPORT IF THESE AREN'T THE ONES THEY WANT TO MAINTAIN A LEVEL OF SECURITY TO OUR ELECTIONS?

>> SENATOR, IN THE WAKE OF SOME MAINLY NEWS ON THE GUN ISSUE THIS WEEK YOU, WOULD YOU FAVOR LEGISLATION TO BAN THE ASSAULT WITH WEAPONS.

>> HOW DO YOU DEFINE THAT?

>> AN AK-47 FOR OPENERS.

>> WELL, HOW DO YOU DEFINE THAT?

>> WELL, AN AUTOMATIC WE HOPE THAT CAN SHOOT A LOT OF PEOPLE IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

OKAY.

BUT I SEE MEAN THIS IS -- THIS IS ALWAYS -- I MEAN, MACHINE GUNS ARE NOT AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE IS ALWAYS THIS CONFUSION OVER WHAT IT SEND AND WHAT ISN'T.

AR-15S, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE CALL THESE ASSAULT WEAPONS BUT YET THEY ARE JUST A VERY STANDARD RIFLE IN MANY WAYS DEPENDING UPON HOW YOU CONFIGURE IT.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, CONGRESS SAYS, WELL, LET'S GET RID OF A CERTAIN, IF IT'S GOT THIS KIND OF STOCK ON IT, AS IF THAT WAS THE, YOU KNOW -- >> SENATOR WOULD YOU FAVOR LENLLATION THAT WOULD BAN PEOPLE FROM PUTTING DEVICES ON THEIR RIFLE TO MAKE THEM AUTOMATIC?

WOULD YOU SUPPORT THAT?

>> I WOULD HAVE TO THINK ABOUT HOW THAT WOULD GET DEFINE THE, TIM, AND WHAT THAT WOULD MEAN AND WHAT THAT DEVICE MIGHT BE USED FOR.

THERE IS ALSO THE DEVIL IN THE DETAIL ON THESE QUESTIONS.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON OUR PROGRAM.

WE WILL SEE YOU BACK IN TOWN NEXT WEEK.

HAVE A SAFE WEEKEND.

OUR THANKS TO KYLE AND JOE AND CHUCK STOKES.

EVERYBODY HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

SEE YOU RIGHT HERE WITH A SPECIAL EDITION OFF OF THE RECORD WITH FOUR STUDENTS WHO WANT TO BECOME JURMISTS OF ALL THINGS.

SEE YOU THEN.

>> PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POS THEIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING: BIDS LEADERS FOR MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP 10 STATE FOR JOHNS AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY LEARN MORE AT MICHIGANSROAD.

>> MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF OF ARE THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBIK.