- [Announcer] Funding for this program is provided by Panonica Foundation, Judy and Peter Blum Kovler Foundation, Ascension Seton, BP America, Laura and John Beckworth, St.

David's Healthcare, and by.

And also by.

A complete list of funders is available at APTonline.org and LiveFromLBJ.org.

- I do want to emphasize, gathered here at the LBJ Presidential Library, I do believe that it was a credit to the leaders in both political parties, that they all came together the very same day and did their duty under the Constitution, and that's why I say it, really.

It was a triumph of freedom.

(triumphant music) (triumphant music continues) - Welcome to the LBJ Presidential Library.

I'm Mark Updegrove.

Since the Library was dedicated by our 36th president, Lyndon Baines Johnson, over a half a century ago, it has hosted some of the biggest names and best minds of our day to discuss our nation's rich history and the issues of our times.

Now, we bring those conversations straight to you.

Mike Pence served as Vice President for President Donald Trump during Trump's first term in office from 2017 to 2021.

Pence's refusal to block the certification of the 2020 election results, despite Trump's false claims that the election was stolen from him, led to his estrangement from Trump.

Tonight, the former vice preside talks about his new book, "What Conservatives Believe," his vision to revive the conservative movement, embodied by Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan, and why he believes Trump and the Republican Party he rules have strayed from traditional conservative values.

Mr.

Vice President, welcome, and congratulations on "What Conservatives Believe."

- Thank you, Mark.

It's good to be with you.

- So, what led you to write this book, Mr.

Vice President?

- Well, you know, for, really, the last 50 years, the Republican Party has been defined by a commitment to a traditional conservative agenda: strong national defense, America as leader of the free world, less government, less taxes, traditional values, and our contest has been against a largely traditional liberal Democratic Party throughout those decades, but I was inspired to write the book because I think that there's change in the air right now in both political parties.

I think the Democratic Party has in many ways been overtaken by a progressive left that even embraces socialist policies that would've been anathema to traditional Democrats decades ago, but I wanted conservatives to know that there's also a new threat to our movement, and it comes from a populist right that would embrace protectionism, big government solutions, nationalization of businesses, broad-based tariffs, and marginalize values like the right to life that have dominated our party's agenda for decades.

So, I think we're living in a time when particularly many younger Americans are confused about what it means to be a conservative, and so inspired by Barry Goldwater's classic book from 19 entitled "Conscience of a Conservative," I started putting pen to paper a year ago, and that's what gave birth to "What Conservatives Believe: Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience," and I've been very heartened by the response.

- I wanna go back to those founding fathers of conservatism including Barry Goldwater in a moment, but what do you think is driving that nativism, the xenophobia, the populism that we see in America today?

- I think there's a number of factors, and frankly in many ways, having served in Washington, D.C.

for 20 years, I have to tell you that I think it's been the failure of both parties to really advance policies that will make it possible for families to truly prosper.

I mean, a nearly $40 trillion national debt is evidence of, really, bipartisan failure.

I mean, I'm old enough to remember back in the day when President Ronald Reagan and Speaker Tip O'Neill sat down, rolled their sleeves up, and figured out a way to extend the life of Social Security by 30 years through principled compromise, but I think the American people have seen the dysfunction in Washington, they've experienced struggles in their own lives, and I think it's caused people in both political parties to be looking elsewhere, but I still believe that that agenda of conservative principles, free market economics, investing in our national defense, respecting values is, it's not just a winning agenda for the Republican Party, but I believe it's a winning agenda for America, and I wanna see our party return to it.

- You quote Barry Goldwater in the introduction to the book and his book, "Conscience of a Conservative," which is a great inspiration to you, and he writes, "The conservative approach is nothing more or less than an attempt to apply the wisdom and experience and the revealed truths of the past to the problems of today."

So, what does that boil down to?

What does that look like?

- I think it boils down to a belief in freedom, Mark.

I really do.

I mean, we marked this last summer.

The 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence: a document that had the earth-shaking four words that all men are created equal and endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights: life and liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and for me, it's as Calvin Coolidge says, and I also quote in the book, that leaders come and go, but principles are final, and I really do believe through the generations, both of our political parties largely embraced the core principles of freedom.

I think the Democratic Party became more comfortable with big government solutions in the wake of the Great Depression, but before that, these were really universal values among Republicans if history teaches, but for my part, a lot of people, particularly in my movement, Mark, wanna to leave the likes of Barry Goldwater, of Ronald Reagan, some of the thought leaders of the time, William F. Buckley and Russell Kirk in the past.

In fact, those of us that advocate for those principles are often told by our own fellow Republicans that we, quote, "don't know what time it is."

That those principles had their time, but we need new ideas, and I hold to the view that the principles of limited government enshrined in the Constitution, the freedoms enshrined in our Bill of Rights, the ideals in the Declaration are just as relevant today, and need just as many champions today as ever.

- You also write in the book of your term in the White House from 2017 to 2021, "I'm proud of the record of the Trump-Pence Administration, and believe Goldwater and Reagan would be too."

What are the conservative wins that you're proud of in that term, Mr.

Vice President?

- Well, I am proud of the record of the Trump-Pence administration.

It didn't end the way I wanted it to, but I'll always believe by God's grace I did my duty on that fateful day in January of 2021 to support and defend the Constitution, but throughout our term, well, the president and I were very different men.

We were working on the same agenda together.

I was there to support the president's agenda, and I saw President Trump and our administration do, in many respects, what Republicans had been advancing since the days of Ronald Reagan: rebuilt the military, revived our economy, stood with Israel without apology, stood up to our enemies in the world, cut taxes, regulations, unleashed American energy, and appointed conservatives to our courts at every level, and let me say, the new Trump administration, I think, Mark, has gotten a lot right from my perspective as a conservative: securing the southern border of the United States after the worst crisis in history, extending all those Trump-Pence tax cuts, and also standing with Israel and standing up to Iran in ways that no president had ever done before, I think are admirable, but the departures that I write about in my book have been significant: on economic policy, on foreign policy, the stops and starts of support for Ukraine after the brutal and unprovoked invasion four years ago by Putin's Russian military, but ideas like the nationalization of businesses, price controls, and marginalizing a discussion about the right to life are genuine departures from that traditional agenda, and I wrote the book to make the case that presidents do get to set the agenda, but very soon, our party's gonna start thinking about who our next standard bearer is, and what I'm challenging people in our side to do is I say I think it's more important that we focus on what we're for before we focus on who we're for.

The Republican Party ought to be a choice, not an echo of the other party, and I'll let the Democratic Party figure out how it's gonna deal with the progressive left and the rise of socialist sentiments, but in our party, I wanna see us be about limited government, freedom, and the principles that have defined us for decades.

- Let me go back to the first Trump administration and to January 6th, which you alluded to a moment ago.

How do you think January 6th will impact history's verdict on the Trump-Pence administration?

- Well, you know, I would leave that to others to assess, but I'm very comfortable with the judgment of history on the actions that we took that day and that every Republican and every Democrat in the Congress took that day.

Look, January 6th was a tragic day, but thanks to the courage of law enforcement, the riot was quelled and the Congress was able to reconvene the very same day to complete our work for the peaceful transfer of power under the Constitution.

I remember when we reconvened the Senate.

I said that this day of tragedy had become a triumph of freedom, because as the world watched, our institutions held, our constitution held, and it is my fondest hope that in the fullness of time when that day takes its proper place in the American story, people will see it as an example where freedom won, our constitution won, and I was humbled to be among the people that day that saw to it that that happened.

- What was going through your mind that day?

- Well, to be honest with you, Mark, it never occurred to me that there could be violence the likes of which we saw take place that day.

I knew there was great consternation.

I knew there would be great disappointment among many of our most ardent supporters who had gathered in the nation's capital that day and around the country, but I never had a greater sense of resolve in my life.

You know, for me, it all comes down to the oath of office that, you know, law enforcement officers take here in this great city, my son who's in the Marine Corps took when he took his oath of office.

Every office holder takes the same oath.

And the Bible says in Psalm 15, "He keeps his oath even when it hurts," and I know something about that.

But that's been the thread, I would argue, through American history, that people who faced real dangers on battlefields and keeping our families safe on the streets.

Everyone has shown up every day with few exceptions and kept their oath, and so for me, that was where my focus was that day, just to, I knew I was where I was supposed to be, doing what I was supposed to be doing, fulfilling the role described for me in the Constitution of the United States to open and count electoral votes.

Nothing more, nothing less.

But I do want to emphasize, gathered here at the LBJ Presidential Library, that I do believe that it was a credit to the leaders in both political parties, that they all came together the very same day and did their duty under the Constitution, and that's why I say it, really.

It was a triumph of freedom, and I know the world was watching.

I've traveled a lot around the world over the last five years as a private citizen, and I'm more convinced today than I was that day the world was watching what was happening in Washington, D.C.

that day, and they saw that our constitution held and freedom prevailed.

- They were not just watching.

They were watching you.

You were the pivotal man at that moment.

- Well, as I said, by God's grace, I'll always believe we did our duty that day.

- Let me go back to the second Trump term.

Why do you think the president has strayed from traditional conservative principles in the second term?

- Well, you know, I wouldn't really care to speculate too deeply, Mark.

I do know it's different people.

I know, you know, I was actually asked the day after we were elected in 2016 to lead our transition effort by the president-elect.

I served in the role of bringing in men and women who could lead cabinet agencies and serve in the administration.

The president made the decision, but I'm very proud of the cabinet that we assembled.

It was a great number of very principled conservatives.

With very few exceptions, people that had come out of the conservative movement who were around that cabinet table.

This cabinet's different in some respects.

When I see some of the policies, particularly economic policies that have emerged, I mean, the very idea that the federal government would nationalize and take a percentage share of private businesses, beginning with U.S.

Steel last year, would've been anathema to our economic team in the first Trump term, and also, the distinction on tariffs, Mark.

You know, President Trump has never made any secret about the fact that he's very fond of tariffs, but in our four years, we used tariffs as a means of lowering trade barriers and opening markets, or as in the case of our negotiations with Mexico over border security, we were able to secure the Remain in Mexico policy.

But the president used the threat of tariffs and imposing tariffs, as we did on China, with the goal of facilitating negotiations that would open markets for the American people to sell what we grow, to sell what we make around the world.

I saw on Liberation Day last year that this tariff policy in this administration was very different, that what was proposed until it was turned back by the Supreme Court, properly, in my judgment, on constitutional grounds, is broad-based industrial policy.

I mean, we're tariffing friend and foe alike.

People with whom we have a trade deficit and a trade surplus equally, and as I said, I'm pleased the Supreme Court turned that back.

The power to tax, the power to tariff under the Constitution belongs to the Congress, but the administration's ongoing effort to impose unilateral tariffs represents, I believe, a departure in tactics, if not strategy from our administration.

It's been very dramatic.

- You write in the book that there were times when you would look at President Trump in that first term and say, you know, "That's conservative policy," and he'd say, "No, no, no, that's common sense."

Do you think that President Trump was ever driven by conservatism?

Was he ever a natural conservative?

- Well, I don't think he'd say so.

(Mike laughs) As I write in the book, when I would point out in a meeting that, "Well, that position is the conservative position," he'd wave his hand and say, "It's just common sense."

In fact, I quote in the book one of the many occasions on the record in public where he said, "I am not a conservative."

You know, I think his philosophy of leadership really derives from a lifetime in business.

Growing up, it was a large enterprise, but essentially it was a family business that he grew up around, and I think that that instinctive Americanism and approach to leadership didn't really come from what I would call an ideological foundation as much as it came from his favorite term, common sense.

- One of the chapters in your book is called "Standing Up to Our Enemies."

As you look across the world, Mr.

Vice President, what do you view as our greatest threat?

- Well, China is the greatest economic and strategic threat facing the United States in the 21st century, and I write about that of first importance in my book, "What Conservatives Believe."

I think that making sure we're making investments in our national defense that will secure the freedom of navigation, that will deal with China's ongoing provocations in the Asia-Pacific, but also strengthening our alliances across the world to ensure that free nations are drawing closer and not farther apart is a critical part of that.

That certainly was the case in our first administration.

We got tough on China.

- Yeah.

- In fact, we imposed $250 billion in tariffs on China, which brought them to the negotiating table in a short period of time, but it was in concert with other free nations that we were able to turn back what was the advent of the Huawei technology that was being spread across the West that any information technology, whether it's Huawei or TikTok, is under the control and, by their law, required to be open to the Chinese Communist Party.

We were able, working with European allies and other allies around, to literally reverse a trend of adopting Huawei on privacy and national security grounds, so that's of first importance.

Now, I do believe if we stay strong, if we continue to demand that China ends intellectual property theft, ends the trade abuses that have gone on for generations, that we can be hopeful for a peaceful and prosperous future for both of our nations, but I think if we pull back, as I say in the book, weakness arouses evil, and if we pull back from our commitments, I am concerned at this conversation that so far, our military sales to Taiwan have been paused in the wake of the president's summertime summit with President Xi.

I think if we pull back in any way, it will only embolden the authoritarian forces within Chin to continue to extend their influence, and even possibly through force in the region, and so as we say in the book, and conservatives have long believed, best way forward is peace through strength.

- You held the vice presidency for four years.

As you look at the vice presidency of your successor, JD Vance, how would you evaluate his performance?

- Well, I think he's, fine family, carried himself in a dignified way, but it's, you know, I have learned, and the man after whom this library is named was a vice president for a short time.

The one thing true about American history is that each presidency is unique and each president decides what the shape of the vice presidency is, so in my case, I have a sense that President Trump knew that I'd been a leader in Congress, served for 12 years, and knew most of the members of Congress on both sides of the aisle.

He also knew I'd been a governor for four years, and good rapport with governors in both parties, and we had the kinda relationship that was a continuous dialogue, and the president had me very active on Capitol Hill, very active making our case around the country and around the world, and it was a great privilege.

And from afar, I see my successor has taken on responsibilities with the fraud commission and other areas, but there's only one person that defines the role of the vice president every four years, and that's the president of the United States.

- You enumerate in the book certain principles that you believe conservatives subscribe to, and one of them is that they believe in character, civility, and statesmanship.

How do we get back to a more civil society in our country, Mr.

Vice President?

- Well, I believe that democracy depends on heavy doses of civility.

That's one of the reasons why in the tradition of representative government, there are rules of debate.

In the Congress, I was required to refer to someone as my good friend in a debate, even if they weren't, (laughs) but I think that's all part of the fact that you've got to preserve a modicum of respect to have the ability to work the issues that are really facing the American people, and I think most Americans long for us to restore a threshold of civility.

Look, as I write in the book, President Donald Trump did not invent negative personal attacks in politics.

He may have perfected it, but he didn't invent it.

(Mark laughs) It's been around for a while, Mark.

You and I both know that.

I think the American people want better because I think they know there are things coming down the tracks that are gonna require both parties to figure out a way to work together, but it all begins with civility.

You know, I'd often say, "I'm a conservative, but I'm not in a bad mood about it."

(Mark laughs) If you read the first book that I wrote, that wasn't always true for me, I stipulate.

I ran for office when I was 29 years old.

I got caught up in all the negative politics of the day, but after it was over, I began to reflect deeply on what my Christian faith required of me.

I mean, there's no, there's no, you know, asterisk next to the Golden Rule if you're in politics.

My faith teaches me to treat others the way I want to be treated.

I hadn't done that in those early years, but a decade later when public office came back around, my wife and I just purposed to hold each other accountable to deal with others the way we wanna be treated, and it's why, to this day, I enjoy warm, personal relations with people I disagree with on almost everything, but they know I respect their views and see them as sincere, and they see me the same way.

- Mr.

Vice President, thank you for being with us, and thank you for your service to our country.

- Thank you, Mark.

It's a privilege.

Good to be with you.

(triumphant music) (triumphant music continues) (triumphant music continues) - [Announcer] Funding for this program is provided by Panonica Foundation, Judy and Peter Bloom Kovler Foundation, Ascension Seton, BP America, Laura and John Beckworth, St.

David's Healthcare, and by.

And also by.

A complete list of funders is available at APTonline.org and LiveFromLBJ.org.

(spirited music) (emphatic music)