Michigan's new governor elect and the state's third female governor sits down fo her first extended conversation on how she got here and where she intend to take this new administration.

So sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in par by Bellwether Public Relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

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And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Well, here we are in Studio C and look who's here with us.

Governor-elect Jocelyn Benson.

How does that sound to you?

It's still very new.

It's.

But I'm ready.

You know, I'm excited.

And, you know, there's one governor at a time.

So we've got Governor Whitmer through the end of the year, but proud to be serving in this role in this moment as we chart the course of our state's future.

We're making a bit of history here.

It's sort of, you reminded m the other day that 17 years ago, you ran for what office?

Secretary of State, 2010 election.

Exactly.

You knew nothing about politics, right?

I knew about the Secretary of State office, though.

I had written a book on it.

Right.

Okay, so it was it was really an effort to at that point, not necessarily even win, but it but try to, you know, lead, the party at the time, the Democratic Part to nominate a Secretary of State who would take the job seriously.

So I'm sure you anticipate we dug out the tape.

Okay.

And we're about to take a look at it.

No, you're going to like this.

This is my first major interview.

Please cut you some slack.

I was a young law professor at the time.

Yeah, okay.

Well, the the exchange is interesting at the end that I want you to look at, an then we'll comment afterwards.

Should we take a look at it?

Yeah.

All right.

Roll the tape guys, here we go.

My parents are both special education teachers.

And so I grew up with this instilled with this value of access and fairness.

So you will not run for Governor.

To me.

So you will not run for Governor.

I'm running for Secretary of State.

I understand, but you will no run for Governor in the future?

Yeah, I'm not looking forward in that sort of way.

No, not at all.

Okay.

All right, well, we'll save this tape.

Oh, and we saved- And indeed you did.

So you bailed out on the question of Governor.

So when did it change?

You know, I, I love the job I have as Secretary of State.

I love being able to manage an office that interacts with every citizen and also our elections that are critical and the foundation to everything else.

So I always wanted to do that job.

I had never run for any other office, and it was after the 2022 election, really, in that in second term, 2023, and certainly after the '24 election, where I realized not only I still had more work I wanted to do, I wanted to serve the state, but that the work I was doing to make government work well and the Secretary of State office I wanted to do in every agency, because when I looked at a lot of the problems still plaguing our state: health care, accessibility, housing affordability, a lot of tha rooted back to our our agencies efficiently run and modernized and serving the people well.

And so for me, actually, deciding to run for Governor was rooted in wanting to extend my service to the state and focus on economic development and making government work well.

Was it a decision from the get go to do it?

Or did you say, I'm thinking about it.

And then you decided or what you before you ready to go right off the bat?

I mean, it really was sort of a question of what do I want to do next afte serving as Secretary of State.

And so, yeah, I mean, I think you can serve in many ways.

And you didn't know, I mean, at that stage did you want to go into TV news?

No, that's your that's your lane.

That's your lane.

But but it was really a question of how to continue to serve.

I mean, you know you've known me for a long time.

I've a very service-driven family.

And so that was the question.

And what what service did I want to do?

And I also look at public servants who came before me.

Voting rights and access to elections was one pillar of the civil rights movement.

That educational opportunity and economic opportunity were the other two.

And so for my own career I wanted to work on education, opportunity, economic development and the next steps of my service.

And one of the most effective ways you can do that is as Governor.

And certainly my priority as Governor will be to improve our public schools and also ensure we hav well-paying jobs in our state.

So let's tal the politics of this campaign.

Take me back to the day that you found out that Mike Duggan was not running.

Ha, ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Why does that draw a laugh?

It draws a laug because it was quite a moment.

It was right before the Mackinac Policy Conference.

And so and it was unexpected.

It was quite a moment because it opened the door for you to win this race.

I. Well, thank you.

I think we were prepared to win the race.

We were prepared, and hopeful to win the race either way.

You know we had been running a campaign.

It was a more challenging rac because we had a two front war, and that was really what I was in in that moment.

We had just come off a debate at the UAW earlier that week, and then heading int the Mackinac Policy Conference, it was it was clear to me the challenges of a two front war where you're being attacke by a Republican and independent.

But I had full confidence that I was a better candidate and could push through to the general with the right vision- well some in this town would say, a challenge is an understatement.

You could have lost this, and you would not be sitting here today if he had stayed in that race.

Possible?

Possible, sure, you can lose any race.

You would concede that point?

Well, of course anything was possible.

I think it would have been a certainly a more narrow, victory.

But I feel strongly and I think our team felt strongly that, that we had a pat to win throughout this election.

I mean, look, I outraised every other candidate in this race from day one.

I outpolled every other candidate in this race from day one, and led in the polls throughout the election cycle.

Of course, that doesn't mean anythin until the voters actually vote, but I felt strongly about our chances throughout, and we were prepared to win a three way race and I believe we were and build- building the campaign for that.

And I do think, I'm very grateful for the number of supporters who came our way as it coalesced.

But, but either way, I believe we could have won.

Do you enjoy putting the arm on people for money?

No.

Who does?

I do see it as an opportunity to get people to invest in your vision.

And something they can do to help manifest that vision, whether it's improving our schools or improving our economy or making health care more affordable.

So my conversations are always rooted in this is what I want to do.

This is the change I want to see.

These are the results I'm seeking.

Will you help invest in that vision so that we can be successful.

Have you talk to any previous Governor so far?

I have.

Tell me the names and what's- I've talked Governor Snyder, I've talked to obviously, Governor Whitmer, Governor Blanchard, Governor Granholm, not yet Engler.

Are you gonna talk to Mr.

Engler?

I would love to I would welcome all those conversations because whether we agree or disagree, I have so much to learn from the people who came before me as we char our next course for the state, and I want to take every good idea.

I'm a big believer no one has all, no one party has all the right, and best ideas.

But by listening to everyone, we can come up with the best plan.

And look, there are a few people who've walked this path, and being able to talk to, folks who had served as Governo in Michigan, but also Governors in other states has been really helpful as I make our plans.

Is there a nugget that you've taken away from those talks?

Yes.

Talent is key.

Building a good administratio is that sort of the consistent, strong people who can be part of your team to execute your vision.

And, you know, frankly, my conversation with Governor Snyder was really helpful.

It was rooted in our shared recognition of data.

Did he tell you about spreadsheets?

Yeah.

No, it's exactly I love spreadsheets, I love it, I love spreadsheets, I love numbers, I love data, and I love, best practices.

And and we found an alignment there.

And so I really love picking his brain about the work he, wanted to do.

We also aligned on our desir for high speed rail in Michigan, which is something he tried to bring.

And I'm really fascinated i speaking with former Governors about what did you g into the office wanting to do?

What were your big ideas and how o why do you feel you fell short?

Because I'm going into this with my own big ideas and my own hope to transform and grow our economy.

And I want to go in knowing, the pitfalls that others and, perhaps, that felt along the way so that I can avoid those.

Governor Milliken started what they call the quadrant system, where you brin in the two Democratic leaders, the two Republican leaders.

Will you reinstate that as part of your deal to work?

Yeah, yeah, I'm eager to collaborate with our legislature.

I'm an executive through and through.

I like to get things done, bu I'm also a collaborative leader.

And so it's going to be important to me with especially with these new majorities in the House, in the Senate t collaborate with our lawmakers.

I also believe Republican or Democrat, I want to believe every lawmaker comes to Lansing with a goal, with a vision of what they wan to do to serve their community.

And I want to know that goal that they have so that I can help them achieve it, regardless of what party they could be in.

That's how you build a collaborative policy vision for the state and bring everyone together to get things done.

Basically the House has a big margin there.

Yeah.

Is that a plus or minus?

I think it's all about relationships, and certainly it's a plus.

That's a key point.

If you if I may interrupt you just a second.

You are not a creature of the legislature.

No.

Okay?

You wer you were an outsider looking in.

Can you say for me here today that you started the process or how many people in the legislature can you say, you know, that you can go to and say, you know, I might need your vote?

Yeah, I will, I hope by the end of January know all of them.

I intend to, have lunches and dinners collectively with all lawmakers.

I invite all of them to, to get to know me.

As I get to know them, I want to know why they're serving.

I want to know their why so that I can help them achieve it in a way that aligns with our goals as well.

But that said, I'm grateful for our lieutenant governor elect Winnie Brinks who is the Senate majority leader right now, has an extraordinary, skill set in managing, legislativ caucus and getting things done.

So we're going to be a great governing team as well as we work with the leadership in the legislature on both sides of the aisle to get things done.

Tell me wher this marathon thing came from.

Is all about the Detroit Free Press Marathon in 2005, where you finished on Ford Field, you got to run onto Ford Field.

That was the finish line, and I would go on long runs through this wonderful trail called Paint Creek Trail.

So you've done this before.

I've done 40 marathons.

Tim, you know that.

Yeah, I had the count at 30, I missed ten.

Okay.

Must have been sleeping.

The Free Press was my 40th marathon.

Wow.

This year.

Yes.

But why?

Because I. Well, one, I enjoy being outside, right?

I love exercise I love I always been an athlete, so I enjoy running.

But running long distance is one thing.

But but certainly I, you know, getting to be able to run on to Ford Field was the reason I ran the marathon.

But the reason I love marathoning, the reason I ran a maratho in the middle of this campaign was because even though I've run 40 at every race at the beginning, I always doubt whether I can finish it.

I always get nervous, I always feel like question myself and then one foot in front o the other, you achieve the goal.

It's very similar to running for Governor.

It's very similar to taking on any big swings.

You always wonder, am I going to succeed?

But that doesn't stop you from taking that first step.

And then you take it.

Take it one foot after the other, and before you know it, you finish.

As a non marathon runner.

And wha what do you think for 26 miles.

I listen to music, but I also think and I actually thought a lot about- do you think?

I do.

Do you zone out?

I do it's very meditative.

I think on this marathon that I ran a few weeks ago, I thought about the campaig because it was its own marathon.

The first mile or two.

I was thinking about how we launched.

Halfway through, I was thinking about the day it wen from being a three person race to a two person race, and beyond, I mean, all the different milestones along the way.

So I'm a very sentimental person as well.

It gives me time to just think through and remember and recollect and then plan for the future.

The, the the data say the marathon runners are loners.

Are you a loner?

Oh, interesting, I am independent, I have an independent streak.

But I, I when I actually running is about achieving your personal best, but it's also about doing it with a team of people around you, other runners who are similarly achieving the same thing.

It's a very it's a great metaphor for the work I do.

And so it's it is an independent way of connecting with others along the same goal.

Okay.

So as a marathon runner, you're on your own.

When you're working a crowd, do you get energy from that?

I get inspired from it.

Why the pause?

Because I wouldn't I wouldn't say energy just in and of itself.

I'm a bit of an introvert.

You are.

I'm very much an introvert.

I yeah.

And so and I'm a little bit shy.

And so that's been always har for me, in crowds to feel like, you know, people want to hear from you or just all those things that you wonder.

And then but at the same time, once I listen to others that's where I get the energy.

That's where I get the inspiration.

It reminds me why I'm doing this, even if it's hard for me to get out there into a crowd and feel.

So people are going to say introvert?

Yeah.

That's surprising.

It is.

I, it is.

You wouldn't expect it because I'm no one of those leaders that does inherently get that energy.

Is that what the Myers-Briggs described you as?

INTj I think yes.

You obviously took that- justice I know was the last one.

You were a sociology major.

I was.

You had to take that several times.

I did.

Yeah.

Okay So did you come back introvert?

Yeah.

Oh I, I'm a proud introvert because I am- as opposed to what?

Because it requires I don't know someone who's ashamed of it.

But I love being I because I think it is actually made me a better listener when it comes, which is really important for service and for leadin and being a collaborative leader because I, I may, I may be, not feeling like I need to go in and command a room with a, with a great speech or connecting with everyone.

But I do love to go into a crowded room and liste to what people have to say to me so that I can figure out how I can best help them.

And that's my approach.

So I apologize for this question.

Okay, it's half joke to work with me here.

I won't laugh.

Okay, I kno comes indigenous to this office.

Can you tell the people of Michigan right now you promise you will not run for president in 2028.

I promise I will not run for president in 2028.

And if somebody calls you up and offers you vice president, you will not accept.

I have no intentio of being vice president either.

I ran for Governo to serve the people of Michigan, and I've got ambitious plans.

I can't accomplish them all in the two years we're going to need- However.

Yeah.

In long term, would you ever rule out running for that office?

I have no plans.

I have no desire.

No, I have no desire.

No plans?

Of course you're not.

You're trying to become Governor.

I can't imagine.

I'm just having, you know, flashbacks to 16 years ago when you asked me this question about governor.

But at the same time, I, I, I'm not really a a creature of Washington, I love Michigan, I love being here.

And the work I want to do was always more rooted in the state improving our schools, improving our economy, protecting our elections.

That's much more focused on state politics.

And that's really what I love.

And I also I love being connected to the people that you're you're whose problems you're helping to solve and serve.

And that's really is is what state politics to me is all about.

You guys going to live i the residence?

That's our hope.

But we will probably go back and forth.

My son goes to school i Detroit and loves his community, so I think we'll go back and forth.

We're still trying to figure all that out, you know?

And but at the same time, I intend to be very present in Lansing, and very, collaborative in partnership with the legislature.

It would be disruptive to yan them out of that school, right?

Yeah.

So we're we'll see.

I think for now, we want to go back and forth between Lansing and Detroit.

I'm also the first Governor in a while, Governor-elect, to to be in Detroit.

And so, that connection to Detroit, continuing to live in the city, in our neighborhood i really important to me as well.

You said you don't want to play political games.

One of the political games is horse trading with the horse trad for votes.

Well, I like the hmm.

Why hmm?

Because political games to me, are inherently about getting clicks and likes and sound bite and not getting anything done.

That's what I don't like.

So you'll horse trade.

I don't like inaction.

You'll horse trade.

If it gets the if it gets the if it moves the needle.

Yes.

Because and I but I but I say that saying that I've got values and expectations.

I'm not going to engage in horse trading that violates those values.

But if it helps us mov the needle and get things done, compromise and collaboration is key.

So that's how I approach it.

But political games I have no patience for.

I have no patience for unproductive legislatures as we've seen in this last term.

That to me is political gamesmanship that gets in the way of progress.

Governor elect thank you so much for this time.

We deeply appreciate this opportunity to chat as you ente this new adventure in your life.

No thank you.

I'm sure we'll chat again before too long.

And thank and thank you fo your service to the state, Tim.

It's been, coming here since 2009.

It's great to be here in this capacity, but I'm grateful for als all you've done for our state.

Thank you.

You're very kind.

Thank you.

I'll be watching.

Okay.

I'm sure you will.

Through the magic of television.

Now it is Friday morning.

Good morning.

Everybody.

Get a good night's sleep last night?

I did it.

Do you guys wake up at 3:00 in the morning thinking about stuff?

Sometimes.

More than I'd like.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, good.

Now I don't feel like I'm alone.

All right.

Last night.

Got a good night's sleep.

Well, listen, here's what's going to happen.

We're going to do two parts of the show for the next nine minutes or so.

We'll talk about the governor's race, then go to wkar.org for discussion about everything else.

We're going to do two parts.

The overtime part coming up.

So, Beth, what was what did what what was the surprise thing about the governor's race?

If there was one.

I don't think there was a surprise.

I think, throughout this race, all of the polls had shown that Benson was leading.

There wasn't a lot of attention on the governor's race, in part because of this huge Senate race that was taking up all the oxygen in the room.

I think Benson had a decisive lead throughout the race.

And I don't know that there was much that John James could have done to overcome that in the, the national environment.

You know, she she won decisively.

I think last I saw 11 points and it was.

Very close t what Governor Whitmer had.

Yeah.

Very close.

I mean, if anything, the real surprise was that, you know, you'd heard other, top of ticket folks, like, Eli Savit for attorney general or Garlin Gilchrist.

Eli Savit, particularly given his stance as progressive prosecutor.

He only ran like one point behind Benson pretty much the whole night when there had been, chatter earlier in the race that his progressive policies could actually lead him to lose to Republican Doug Lloyd.

That never happened and really underscored, what people are jokingly now calling a "blue-nami" because it was much more than a blue wave.

It was a decisive blue victory up and down the ballot, particularly in Michigan.

I don't think long- It's not long ago that, you know, the governor's race was the marquee race in these midterm elections.

Always has been.

Yeah.

But obviously this was the inversion this year.

The extreme amount o nationalization of our elections has really sort of like come to the fore here.

And I think that that benefited folks like Savit because it means that people just weren't hearing about these races.

So usually when sometimes this messagin would penetrate down to voters, to some of these lower ballot races, it would it would be a considerable issue, but it clearly wasn't in this instance.

I think one of the things that surprised me, though, is that, James didn't really I think at any point really read the room in terms of voter sentiment, where this was going.

The national Republican strategy here was maximizing Trump hoping to sort of get back some of that 2024 magic, that low propensity turnout that brought him victory in Michigan, although albeit a narrow one, that didn't happen.

And you never saw James pivo towards or breaking from Trump.

He sort of maintained the line and ran alongside Rogers.

Obviously, Rogers and, El-Saye they both outspent enormously.

The money amount of money in that race was astounding.

And so they ran alongside these candidates.

But Benson sort of kept her distance from Abdul for the most part throughout this campaign, whereas James was righ alongside Rogers the whole way.

I agree, don't think there's any surprise on the governor's side.

I think what surprised me a little bit was the margin in which, doctor El-Sayed won the Senate race.

I thought that could have gone either way was just toss it up in the air.

But, you know, that late surprise with Haley Stevens an all of that coupled with that.

And I think just this tidal wave that went across the country in terms of the Democrats, that there was almost no way Republicans were going to survive this.

And we saw it go down even into the congressional races here.

So, I mean, this was just a huge, huge sweep.

If John James had not sough and took the Trump endorsement, would there have been a different result?

Well, I don't know that he would have gotten through the primar without the Trump endorsement.

I mean, that's that's the tric that all of them kind of had to manage was was a way to get Trump's endorsement, but then kind of shed it in order to get into the general election.

And I also think, like, you know, we did see in one example in particular, Congressman Tom Barrett, of all the candidate who were fighting for their life out there, I think he was one who like, over the years, has separated himsel from Trump in some of the votes that he took in some of the comments that he had on the Iran war and tariffs and such, and even he wasn't able to survive this in a 5050 district against a very progressive Democrat.

So I don't know the, the I don't know that any amount of separation would be good enough.

If you had an (R) after your name.

I think you were on the chopping block.

And I think that that' really emphasized in the fourth Congressional District, where Bill Huizenga, who's been in Congress for a number of terms now lost to, outgoing Senate or state Senate Democrat Sean McCann, who is now going to be U.S.

Representative Sean McCann.

You know, I had talked to some political scientists who'd been watching that district ahead of the November election, and they basically said that if you stripped out the candidate names, the way that those two individuals were running on issues, energy, health care, lowering costs, it was very similar.

Toward the end, it very much appeared like they were running in a way that if you had taken the D and the R out if you had taken the names out, they were running very similarly, trying to appeal.

And the writing, like Beth wa kind of saying, was on the wall that they, the Republican candidates in these races, particularly these congressional toss ups.

We also saw Christina Hines when, John James is open, 10th Congressional District seat.

Now, I believe there's only four, U.S.

reps.

Republican, U.S.

reps.

Of Michigan's delegation.

It was just radioactive for them.

one of the things that helped these unknown candidate running for AG, and to a lesser degree for secretary state wa strict straight ticket voting.

I mean, there were a bunc of people that voted that way.

And so you don't have to kno who Eli is down from Ann Arbor, okay?

Because he got the vote because he was just there.

It was that.

I think you're exactly right.

I talked to a number of people, especially young people who may not have known some o these other down ballot races, and they were sort of like, you know, I'm looking at this ballot that you got to flip over is so long, and the easiest thing to do is to just decide, I'm going to vote straight Democrat.

I'm going to vote straight Republican and then go to the nonpartisa sections and be able to fill out what you knew there, because I'm not convinced that everybody knew exactly what they were doing when they get to, you know, the judgeships and all those things.

So I think that made it a lot easier for people.

So was this a vote for Democrats or was this in we just need to send the president a message or is it a combination of both?

I think more than anything, this election was a repudiation of the Trump administration.

Democratic political strategy here was not about, hey, endorse our policy agenda.

I think that their messagin was about leveraging this anger towards the Trump administration.

When you look at Donald Trump's election here in 2024, the number of promises that he made towards the electorate was extraordinary.

He told people that their electricity bills were going to be down 50% within 12 months of entering office.

Clearly the opposite has happened here.

Electricity bills are up, energy prices are up and people's economic circumstance have not changed significantly.

And so I think the challenge for our state leve candidates here is that in this highly nationalized environment where people, all the policy conversations that voters are having around the dinner table, they mostly have to do with federal issues.

But these state level candidates, as part of this, taking over the state legislature, they're now tasked with sort of translating that policy agend at the state level and sort of nibbling away at the edges.

But I think that there's some constraints on their abilit to do that.

Well, I think this.

Oh, I just feel like I think you saw that most definitely in the state House.

Speaker elect Ranjeev Puri.

Now, when I talked to him earlier, how did the election, he was very reticent to say, you know, if Democrats want a trifecta, what they're going to do now, he was part of the last Democratic trifecta that did crash and burn.

I think that they learned that if they, like Simon said kept on that affordability message, just kept on saying, like, we are going to make your lives or try our best to make your lives less expensive rather than, determining, you know what, who uses what bathroom or what's going on in kids sports, you know, things that actually matter at the end of the day, to the kitchen table issues.

You know, that's wh I think you see House Democrats now with a 63 seat majority and Senate Democrats, with a 23 seat majority, some of the largest by margins in decades.

And I think this is clearly a vote against President Trump and his MAGA policies.

People don't like what they saw.

It's hit the economy.

They don't like the Iran war.

They don't like, what's going on in terms of gas prices, all those things.

I do not think it's a love affair of Democrats in any way, shape or form.

I think basicall what people are saying is, okay, we didn't like that we're going to go dance with the Democrats now but don't take this dance as a as a deep relationship because we're not in love.

And if you don't deliver in the next two years, some of the things that we said we don't like, then we could turn on you in a heartbeat as well.

Well, the hidden stor there was the national polling said, okay, the Democrats do have this tsunami, but 29% of the people said we don't like the Democrats or, you know, you know, we're no this is not about the Democrats.

So they have to be very careful of interpreting.

The whole countr of basically two party system.

And if they don't like what they saw coming out of the Republican Party in a midterm election, which is pretty traditional for whoever's in power in that given time, because we've seen it happen with the Democrats as well, the only real alternative is to now go to the Democrats because we don't have a strong independent party.

And they're going to say, can you solve this?

But if you can't solve it, we're going to say, okay, let's get flip back.

I got to get out and we're going to go to overtime wkar.org.

But before we do, an apology for a statement that was made on this show panel last week, referring to the flight 93 survivors.

And obviously there were no survivors.

And we apologize to people that were offended by that remark.

It certainly was not intended, and we apologize for that if you were.

All right.

So go to wkar.org and again, we're going to you guys hang around.

You better.

I can't do this alone, folks.

But thanks for tuning in.

We'll see you later.

And thanks again to the governor for talking to us earlier in this program.

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