Thanks for tuning in.

Our guest is Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate, Dr. Pamela Pugh, who is also the president of the State Board of Education.

Our lead story, as expected, Republican Mike Rogers, who's running for the U.S. Senate.

How did the launch go and on our panel Chad Livengood, Lauren Gibbons and Zoe Clark sitting with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

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And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thanks very much.

Welcome to Studio C. So did you all feel the Earth move last night with the Detroit Lions?

I didn't watch it.

Just talking about.

A magical moment.

But let's not get our hopes up here.

Well, okay.

All right.

We're we're in Michigan.

The hopes are always of the lions are always.

Going for the sports.

So sports talk 99 or whatever this is.

All right.

Mike Rogers, in this race, did he make a big splash or not?

Oh, he's he's certainly trying he's going around the state doing a listening tour, you know, round table seven.

Round table.

Oh, yeah.

So so he is pocketbook issues.

Pocketbook issues.

He's trying to get his name out there.

I think it'll be really interesting to see how a mike Rogers candidacy plays with you know, some of the more grassroots aspects of the GOP right now.

But he's certainly putting his name out there.

He has obviously run for Congress before.

He's he's a pretty well known name, at least in at least in the Lansing area.

So he's he's definitely an interesting candidate and adds add some intrigue to the GOP side on the Senate race.

Miss Clark?

Oh, absolutely.

And look, I got to say, I mean, he knows what he's doing.

I mean, the campaign ad was exactly what you would expect from sort of a top tier candidate.

It was definitely nationally focused.

I mean, this was a sort of argument and not surprising or shocking against Joe Biden and, you know, the Democrats running things right now.

And, you know about the economy and kitchen table issues and gas prices and China and China.

I was going to say, which, gosh, did that not invoke some of the old Pete Hoekstra days and ads?

But I mean, it was sort of by the the playbook that you would assume.

But again, to Lauren's point, I mean, what is going to be fascinating about this candidate in this race in this time is the Trump base and how he is going to thread this.

He does not want to talk about it.

No, he doesn't.

But he's all I've known is he's back in Brighton because Mike Rogers is living in Florida for many years as he sort of stumbled here on this set not too long a few weeks ago.

He even knows what Prop three is now.

And and so he he answered that question yesterday.

He was a lot more prepared when he was asked about abortion, when he would support a national ban.

He said, I'm going to I'm going to uphold the will of the voters of Michigan.

So this was a this was an effort right out of the gate to try to try to neutralize this issue or at least try not to be seen or be painted with like 200 Dixon brushes, where you're sort of paint as an extremist.

And he doesn't want to get knocked in that corner that he's he's he's not he's going to basically try to roll back abortion rights.

Again, his his stance on rape, incest and life of the mother.

I don't I don't know what that was in particular, but that's he's going to get asked about that.

Well, that's sort of critical to this debate.

So you're seeing this now.

A lot of Republicans are starting to really soften on this.

John James has just his office is some form of a gesture to his changes of his position.

And he is now for exceptions in cases of rape and incest.

He was not in in the last election that he won by 1600 votes with a Democrat who made Carl Arlen guy who had almost no support from the National Democratic Party so vulnerable Republicans like John James are waking up to this issue and they know that they cannot win in the suburbs if they do not moderate their position a little bit.

Well, how does Mr. what is the path for victory for Mr. Rogers with 32% of the base vote going for somebody else, assuming Mr. Trump endorses or sends a signal, what is his path?

How does he go around that?

This is what I mean when I'm talking about this primary in particular is going to be so fascinating, particularly as we saw last week, Peter, Maya sort of, you know, dipping his toe in because the two of them would really sort of take on that same sort of mantle of voters.

It does leave an opportunity for a Trump endorsed or, you know, a possibly Trump endorsed candidate to come in.

But this all comes back to money and fundraising and how you're going to be able to pay for ads and getting your message across those two.

Peter Meyer and Mike Rogers have some money that they'll be able to work with, both.

Fighting for the same money on that side of the state.

This is what I was going to say during the billionaire.

And that's exactly for.

And it's also this sort of this this group of, I think, Republicans who feel very left out of or don't even want to be part of the current, you know, Michigan Republican Party.

Right.

And so where do they put their money?

I think this this Senate primary is really going to be the showdown between those two factions.

I think you have for the faction that West Michigan Republicans set, you have a couple of pretty strong candidates, Mike Rogers being one that wasn't necessarily involved in, you know, the 2016, 2020.

He wasn't actively a candidate or in office at that time.

So he is able to, you know, have a step back.

You know, is not this in not the same way as Peter Meyer, who obviously struggled with that in his own district?

But I really do think that will be fascinating because you could certainly see a mike Rogers or Peter Meyer doing pretty well at the general level up against the Democrats.

But but in the primary, it's just hard to say right now.

Well, nobody will confirm this for me, but my guess is the two of them have already talked.

There's already been a come to Jesus meeting about the situation, and nobody will confirm this.

But my guess is the Rogers people are basically saying maybe, Peter, do you want to have two losses in a row?

Do you did you want to make your critical career, you know, two primary losses in a row?

Nobody's confirming all that stuff.

But is that not a problem for Mr. Rogers?

I mean, he he's he's got the challenge.

I think I think the biggest problem is probably going to be James Craig if James Craig gets into this, the former Detroit police chief who has has a little bit of a grassroots following.

And if James Craig actually campaigns outside of Wayne County, that's kind of the key.

I mean.

He actually runs a campaign.

He did not do that as governor.

I mean, it was like a month before he.

Could get on the ballot.

Well, here he's on the ballot, too.

I mean, the month that he was turning the signatures in last year and James Craig hadn't even stepped foot in Hillsdale yet, and so he has to.

Make an area for you.

Non Hillsdale.

Yes.

Actually go and do the work and the campaigning.

I mean we know people like Mike Rogers.

Mike Rogers is a dogged campaigner and and Peter Meier has shown it to be that as well.

And so if James Craig gets out and, you know, look, James Craig came out and endorsed Trump last week, you don't think that was strategic?

I mean, come on.

He's he is Trump.

He is trying for Trump's endorsement.

And if he the earlier he can get it, it would probably, you know, possibly help clear the clear the the field a little bit.

Well, it's an interesting race and it will be fun to see how it turns out.

So The Detroit News, our friend Mr. Mauger, had a story on alleged conflict of interest.

And you found it interesting that the governor speech last week of what's next left out ethics disclosure, financial stuff.

Yeah, that was not next released on the fall agenda.

Even though the voters of this state a year ago in changing term limits.

This this constitutional amendment requires the legislature to adopt a financial disclosure law for all members of the legislature and other statewide elected officials.

They have to disclose their finances.

We're one of two states that doesn't do this.

We're on two states.

It doesn't do a lot of things when it comes to disclosure of records and in transparency.

And what Craig Munger has reported is that State Representative Angela Witwer, chair of the House Appropriations Committee, until seemingly recently, has continued to own a public relations firm that has contracts with the Michigan Department of Education, with the Highland Park schools, cities like Ann Arbor, Marquette Lansing Health departments in multiple counties and big lobby operations in town.

The Michigan Chamber, the Restaurant Association.

Do we know if she'd benefited financially from those connections?

We do not know anything about the finances of Angel Witwer because there's not a personal finance disclosure law on the books yet, and the legislature has just a few more months to do that to pass that law.

And Representative Witwer has not answered questions about whether she's still gaining money.

This she's a chair of the Appropriations Committee in charge of an $80 billion budget.

All these and they have contracts with the company that she founded 15 years ago, have an interest before the legislature.

They go to the Appropriations Committee, especially the Department of Education.

And so it raises a whole lot of questions.

And she hasn't she's been doing this in plain sight for days before the election last year, she posted a photo on on her Twitter account with with the company firm employee standing on the steps of the Capitol is one of these quintessential photos.

We see every PR and lobbying firm in town do where they try to basically show we are power.

We got access except she is is the appropriations chair.

I mean so really information.

Will argue I put that on there because I had nothing to hide.

If I had something to hide, I wouldn't be stupid enough to put it on my Twitter account.

Right.

What did you make of this story?

Oh, it's I mean, first of all, again, as a props to the Detroit News and all the work putting on this, it came out the week that the legislature was back after a lengthy summer.

And, you know, Governor Whitmer had her sort of what's next speech last week.

And Democrats dropping bills on abortion and talking about energy and gun prevention.

And this really took up the oxygen from Lansing.

And that is not what Democrats want, particularly going into this period of time where they're going to have a thin majority likely for the next little while.

So when do we hear from the D's on this package?

I mean, I think I think it speaks volumes that the Democrats, when they were in the minority, were constantly harping financial disclosure, FOIA, access, you know, more transparency in government.

But we have not seen that once they took the majority.

I think it's clearly a little bit, you know, who of the majority to try to protect to their own interests.

Clearly, when the appropriations chair of the House is is fighting back these claims, the speaker has basically said he doesn't want to know any more about it is not not interested and I'm sure he's not because that's embarrassing.

Why.

Chris, why would you want to know?

But I think that really speaks to how much the public should be able to access this stuff, be able to see what interests and she know if if she has nothing to hide, why is she hiding it?

And what we one thing we found out that there's a law on the books from 1968 that says there's supposed to be a joint committee of both both houses.

Yes.

It's never met them, talked to police conflicts of interest and and give advisory opinions.

And we just have absolutely no ethics enforcement at all in this town.

And it is it is.

I mean, this is this is just the latest example.

There are a lot more, particularly under Republican control.

There's a lot of things that came out about former House Speaker Lee Chatfield that we're still learning and probably going to learn more in their future.

And so there's there's a whole host of things that are popping up here and eventually, you know, the leadership in the legislature is going to have to address this head on.

And I will see how this plays out.

Let's call in our guest now, who is the president of the State Board of Education and a Democratic candidate for the US Senate.

Dr.. Q Welcome to Off the Record.

It's good to see you again.

Thank you for having me.

Doctor.

Let's let's start out with a pretty interesting question.

You, first of all, did anybody from the governor's office or the governor herself give you a heads up that she wanted to create a new education department?

Did you get a heads up?

Unfortunately, we didn't.

We learned as a board a day after the executive order had been signed.

In light of that, then when you first found out about this, did the thought go through your mind that this is a payback for you saying that the governor was unqualified to be VP?

Wasn't that at all?

You didn't think about that?

Dr.. No, no, not at all.

All right.

Well, now that you just did, is it.

What I believe is that like myself, the governor is a fighter for the things and and that we believe in.

And unfortunately, I don't think that this is in the best interests of children because of what we've seen in previous restructuring that have been taking place under the leadership of governors, whether we're talking about the $170 million added debt in Detroit, when Governor Engler imposed his model, when we had the CEO model that was imposed in 22,008, we saw another $100 million debt that was added to Detroit.

And then we saw the failure of the EAA, though, occurred under the Snyder administration at the expense of our children.

So I don't think that the framers of our Constitution were intended for the governor's administration to be at the helm of the Education.

And as a matter of fact, our Constitution is written where the two offices are separate.

There's a state board of education who oversees K-through-12 education or I'm sorry, public education oversees public education.

And that's separate from the governor's office.

Of course, the State Board of Education by Constitution are called to to collaborate and to work with the legislature as well as the governor.

Miss Clark.

So I'm curious and we will talk much more about this as we discuss a little bit before this race for Senate, of which you are a part you've come out against the governor's push for this.

The governor is popular among Michigan Democrats.

I'm curious how you think that relationship and that role may play into an endorsement?

Or are you looking for establishment democratic support in the Democratic primary for this US Senate race?

I was elected in 2014 when Republicans swept the top of the ticket a state wide one again in 2022 with over 2 million votes.

The people of Michigan did not send me back to the State Board of Education to be thinking about politics and how that would influence a race that I'm in as a Senate.

So for me, it has to be about children.

And so my voice on this issue is about the children.

And that is what the people of Michigan sent me back to the table to do is be about the best interests of our children and our educators, and that's about our future.

And this is all that this is about is making sure that our children have the best education so that they can be set up for the best future that they could ever imagine.

It's not about politics.

We can't have politics continuing to influence our children's education system.

The attorney general looked into your concerns and in an opinion basically said it's too early to tell.

We don't know exactly what my leap is going to do.

Is there a chance that this works or do you think that time will prove your point?

You know, we're willing to look and see, and I am going to do just that.

I'm going to be vigilantly looking to see how this impacts our children and our education system.

Look, the part of the Education Department that was moved over to this new department, the Office of Great Start, contains Great Start to readiness program.

We are number one in the country tied.

We have been ranked as number one in the country.

So we know that more bureaucracy is not what we need.

We have been underfunded across the spectrum of public education.

We're just starting to see some of the priorities that we've been calling for, for decades to go into place.

And so at the end of the day, we have to make sure that this works for our children.

I'm just going to be clear here.

This new department is supposed to be focused, as you mentioned, on the early childhood and also the lifelong learning post-secondary higher education.

And are you comparing this am I correct that I understanding that you're comparing this executive action to the past governors intervention, a failed intervention in many ways of in Detroit public schools?

I am I am comparing it and to the earlier question, Attorney General Nessel in her response, I am grateful that she gave a response where we still have opportunity to weigh in.

We know that this should be about collaboration.

What we do know is that we were not included on the front end and it's not about just me as the State Board of Education being included on the front end.

It is about an education department.

It's about educators being at the helm of policies that impact our children.

That is what they're trying to do.

That is what their experi tions and expertize is what they're paid to do.

And so that is what this is about.

Do you believe that some members of the Democratic Party have tried to anoint Miss Slotkin as the frontrunner in this race?

And are you offended by that?

There are people who who who would say that, you know, at the end of the day, this is about me, this is about my record.

And you know that I've been a proven leader, whether we're talking about our education system, serving for eight years, pushing back on extremists who have tried to take away books that are about our true history, who have created environments that are not supportive of our LGBTQ plus children who have been there fighting for that.

I saw in the city of Flint as the chief public health advisor fighting for safe and affordable water.

This is about my record.

It's about me being the only statewide elected candidate who won in 2014 again when Republicans swept the ticket.

That is my focus and that is what I will be focusing on when that is what I be sharing with the voters.

And the voters of Michigan are looking for a proven leader in this critical time that we're in.

And she is not a proven leader.

Listen, what I can say is that I have represented this whole state.

I have worked within our diverse population.

And that is what my experience has been.

My experience have has been from, again, education to environment to public health, which are inclusive of the economy and making sure that we have an economy that works for all people and not just people who are connected.

Dr. Pugh, how is Joe Biden doing as president?

Joe Biden has put forward some historic coal legislation, whether we're talking about the infrastructure packages, whether we're talking about the Inflation Reduction Act, as well as release on students as it relates to student loan debt, we definitely have work to do to make sure that all of those policies are realized by every person.

Those people who are on the ground.

2024 is going to be a critical year.

We need to make sure that we have someone on the ticket, such as myself, who has represented and who has worked with multiple populations in our diverse populations throughout this state.

So as far as Joe Biden, I am in full support of him running and look forward to being on the ticket with him.

To go back to education policy a little bit.

And step scores are still down from pre-pandemic levels.

We just saw a big influx of cash through the school aid budget.

You know, what are some of the ways that that school should be investing that money to try and to try and bring these girls back up and try to claw back some of the pre-pandemic education levels.

Right now, again, Michigan has been at the bottom when it comes to equitable funding of our education system throughout the country.

Michigan has been at the bottom of the 50 states.

Michigan does not fund infrastructure.

So as we're moving forward, we know we have to address equitable funding.

And so happy to see in the most recent sign bill signing and that that we will see a index that will look at poverty levels and will help to address equitable funding issues.

So that's, I believe, is number one.

We need to make sure that we're doing all that we can to retain our educators as well as attract educators to the field.

And we need to expand that, making sure that we're addressing the health professions, school nurses, counselors, mental health professionals.

And so we've seen a budget and this started pre-pandemic.

We knew that we need mental health professionals as well as those people and professionals who provide social and emotional support.

So we've seen a budget go from $30 million to 300, over $300 million.

So let's well fold increase.

That's necessary.

Making sure that we have a school counselor and that that ratio that we close that gap of counselor to student ratios, we need student nurses or I'm sorry, school nurses to address our mental health crisis, as well as mental health professionals and those who provide social emotional support.

We need to make sure that.

I'm so sorry.

I was just going to say you're mentioning all of these things that were in a budget that was that was passed by Democrats, signed by Governor Whitmer.

Do you give Governor Whitmer credit for getting some of these things done that are that are helping students and therefore may have some ideas of what's best for the students of Michigan?

Absolutely.

I think the current legislature, I think the governor for taking a priority, a list of priorities that we've put forward, the state board of Education and the Michigan Department of Education has consulted with the governor, as well as the legislature, and has put forward.

And these mechanisms to improve our education system did not come overnight.

They this has been a long standing list.

And, yes, we are very happy and thankful to the governor and the current legislature for moving our agenda forward.

On this topic, topic of this separate state education agency.

A lot of this fight is over the constitutional autonomy of the Department of Education that does not report to the governor and the State Board of Education that is elected by the voters.

Why do we need a statewide elected Board of Education and why do we need a state agency that does not report to the governor?

Again, the framers of the Constitution knew best when they knew that they that they were putting forward the opportunity for a bi partizan body that could take the politics out of education again, making sure that educators can remain at the forefront of making these decisions and putting forth an agenda.

Again, the agenda that we've just listed out that I just listed out our is an agenda that I, along with my board members and the Michigan Department of Education, put forward to the governor, as well as the legislature.

And keeping the two separate again helps to keep the focus on our children and our educators.

Dr. Seward, you want to hang around for an overtime?

Sure.

All right.

Let's do that.

Let's do closed credits.

And we'll be back with our panel and our guest right here.

Go to NPR.org for O.T.

with Dr. Pugh and this group right here.

See you there.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at martinwaymire.com.

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