(soothing music) - On this week's edition of "New York Now," as we get closer to the end of the pandemic, the future of work in New York is at a crossroads.

We'll look back at two stories from this year on how two critical industries in New York could be transformed.

First New York's farming and food industry could soon change.

The state is considering new overtime rules for farm workers.

We'll tell you why that matters and why farmers are against it.

And later, childcare in New York has been a problem for decades, and the pandemic only made it worse.

We'll give you an inside look at the industry and what could be done to give it a boost.

I'm Dan Clark and this is "New York Now."

(dramatic music) - Today, the senate majority will-- - I will fight like hell for you every single day, like I've always done and always will.

- Welcome to this special edition of "New York Now."

I'm Dan Clark.

We hope you're enjoying your Thanksgiving weekend.

And thank you so much for letting us be part of it.

On this week's show, we're going to look back at two stories we reported on the future of work in New York.

It's conversation that's happening in every workplace.

How will things change after COVID, and how will that affect the economy?

And in other industries, the conversation is different.

COVID or not, the workforce is changing.

That's the case in New York's food and agriculture industry, where farmers could soon face a difficult choice.

The state is considering dropping the number of hours farm workers have to work to earn overtime.

Right now they have to work more than 60 hours a week to earn overtime, but that could drop to 40 hours.

In this story, we take you to upstate New York, where that decision could have major implications.

Take a look.

(dramatic music) When you buy a gallon of milk at the grocery store, you probably don't give it a second thought.

But that milk came from a cow.

And that cow may very well live on one of New York's more than 4,000 dairy farms, where more than 15 billion pounds of milk are produced every year, according to the state.

One of those farms is Welcome Stock Farm in Saratoga County, ran by dairy farmer, Bill Peck.

- This is Welcome Stock Farm.

I'm a sixth generation dairy farmer here.

My brother and I farm together with our team of employees.

- Peck's got about 1,000 cows that all need to be milked every day.

And he doesn't do it alone.

He's got 18 full-time workers.

Most of them are immigrants, and they usually work at least 60 hours a week because the cows don't stop when the sun goes down.

- This is a dairy farm.

So this is 24/7 operations.

Around the clock employees, no, animal care doesn't stop.

We have cows that calve day and night, and milking goes on three times a day.

- It's physically exhausting work, the kind that breaks your body over time.

But the workers keep coming back because they need the money.

And in just a few months, their lives could change in a big way.

Right now, farm workers in New York earn overtime after 60 hours.

But soon that could drop, requiring overtime pay at 40 hours.

That's because of a new law, which would allow the state to consider that change.

It was sponsored by Senate Labor Chair, Jessica Ramos, a Democrat from Queens.

She says overtime pay after 40 hours would put farm workers on a level playing field with other industries.

- Our argument of course is a moral one that says that anyone who does any work for a living is entitled to living wages and safe working conditions and benefits.

- But like every other industry, farming has elements that set it apart.

For some farms, the work never stops.

Think of those dairy farms.

Cows don't stop producing milk in the winter, but then there's seasonal work where the main work of the farm only lasts a few months.

That's the case at Indian Ladder Farms, where more than three million apples are harvested every season.

It's been run by Pete Ten Eyck for more than 50 years.

- I'd rather go buy trees.

'Cause we put them really close together.

I got a lot of trees.

I only have 60 acres of orchard, but I got 20,000 apple trees.

And that sounds much more important, doesn't it?

- Ten Eyck's got about as many workers as Bill Peck, the dairy farmer, and like at Peck's farm, most of them are immigrants, but here they don't stay year round.

When the season's over, they go back to their home country.

And Ten Eyck says because they're only here a few months, they want as much work as they can get.

- They're making about $17.50 an hour, the average farm workers on the farm now.

I don't think that's too bad.

I think we're in the ballpark.

The quality of the work is good.

I mean, people enjoy being outdoors.

They enjoy accomplishing something.

- Workers on the farm average about 70 hours a week, Ten Eyck says, so he's already paying about 10 hours of overtime per worker per week.

But if the overtime threshold drops to 40 hours, he'll have a choice to make.

He can either drop workers to 40 hours a week and not pay overtime or keep their hours, take a huge hit, and maybe shut down.

- Well, the immediate impact is if I do nothing at all, just take that extra 20 hours times the number of workers that I have by the season of the year, they have, I figured that all out, it's close to $40,000.

- The move going from 60 to 40 will really be detrimental to upstate agriculture.

You know, if we're in cropping season, it goes up, normal month will be about 9,500 to 10,000 extra pay just in overtime if I were to do that.

- And there are ways to get around that, but none of them are good.

Farmers could downsize their farm, but that means less revenue.

And they could cap their workers at 40 hours a week.

But farmers say that would backfire.

If those workers want more hours, and many do, they could find that work somewhere else.

- The foreign born ones particularly are sending money back to their home countries.

And so if, if I limit them 40 hours, they leave.

They're gonna go to Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, where they don't have these limitations.

They make more money.

- If they can go someplace where they can go and work and take home some wages, because this is their cash wages for the year.

They're gonna do it.

- And even if those workers decide to stay, farmers would have to hire more.

And that's not always easy.

Locals usually don't want those jobs.

And the immigrant workforce is shrinking.

Richard Stupp from Cornell is an expert on those trends.

- We as a national policy really tightened up the border.

So that changed things.

That is a limited pool of people.

There used to be immigrants lining up at farms to find jobs.

That no longer happens.

- And like other industries, costs have gone up for farmers.

Equipment breaks down and new technology is expensive.

But at the same time, farmers can't always make more money.

For one, some prices are set by the government.

And for two, farmers have to stay competitive.

- With many farms in the past decades, a lot of food prices at the farm level have remained stable.

And so farms operate on very narrow margins, and have to operate very competitively with farmers in other states, and increasingly with farmers in other countries.

- That's all to say that the business of farming isn't always flexible.

But in this case, supporters of lowering the overtime threshold for farm workers say it should be.

No other industry in the state sets overtime at 60 hours.

And they say farming shouldn't either.

Mario Solento is the president of the New York state AFL-CIO.

And he says, farm workers should have the same opportunity for overtime pay as everyone else.

- What we're talking about here are workers being treated equally.

In other words, farm workers having the same rights as every other worker in the state, right.

Other workers have a 40 hour overtime level.

Farm workers should have the same.

- And along with having the same benefits at work, supporters say farm workers deserve the same quality of life as everyone else.

That's why Ramos, the Senate Labor Chair, says farm workers deserve a choice in how much they work - The, if you think back to why the labor movement fought and won a 40 hour work week, it's because we fundamentally believe that humans, you know, if we're going to have to work for eight hours, then we should have eight hours of sleep, and we should have eight hours of leisure to do as we please.

It comes from a mentality, a philosophy of health and safety for the worker.

- As for farm workers themselves, they're mixed on the issue.

Some, like seasonal workers, are worried their hours will be cut if the overtime threshold goes down.

That means less money to take home.

But other say 60 hours is too much without some added benefit, especially when you're trying to build a life here.

When the state was holding hearings on this same issue last year, Ursain Vasquez, a dairy farm worker said money couldn't replace time with his family.

- It's a heavy job, difficult, waking up every morning at four o'clock in the morning, it's very difficult.

And at night, get out of work tired.

I agree to reduce the threshold from 60 to 40 hours.

It would be very good for us, for those of us who have our families here, so that we can share with our families.

- And for some, it's also an issue of health and safety.

Emma Kreyche is with the Workers Justice Center of New York, which does advocacy and legal work for farm workers.

And she says that because farming is such a physically demanding job, working 60 hours with no added benefit isn't good for anyone.

- This is very physically demanding work.

So when workers are fatigued, they're more likely to have accidents, to get injured, and they're more likely to die.

People do not want that for themselves.

- But Kreyche says it's also about equity between workers.

For many farm workers, there's a different dynamic between them and their boss compared to other industries.

If they're immigrants and they push back, that can be their entire future on the line if their boss retaliates.

- So you're beholden to your employer in a way that disincentivizes any kind of labor organizing, disincentivizes filing complaints, much less filing lawsuits because you simply won't be invited back.

- That's not to say that's common for farmers who would also lose out if they lose workers.

Again, farm workers aren't always easy to find.

And it's a lot easier to keep workers with experience than start new with someone else.

At the end of the day, there is no farm without its workers.

Jeff Williams is from the New York Farm Bureau.

- And we rely on these workers to do that really important stuff, because if it doesn't get picked, it goes bad.

And then we, then start talking about everyone loves local food, but if no one's there to get it, to pick it or process it, then it doesn't do anyone any good.

- And in a lot of ways, that's why this conversation is so complicated.

Farmers don't want to lose their workers, but they also can't afford higher pay for the same amount of work.

At the same time, farm workers are mixed on whether to drop the overtime threshold, while supporters say it's the fair and right thing to do.

Assembly Food and Ag chair, Donna Lupardo, a Democrat from the Southern tier, is right there in the middle.

She says it's the right path forward, just not right now.

- I think the way I generally look at this is in the ideal world, we would definitely want to lower this threshold.

I think everyone realizes how important it is to pay people for the work that they do.

But we're hoping that in the middle of a pandemic, that people will understand that what could happen in the long run is people may very well lose their jobs in the process.

And we might lose vital farms as well.

- And those who support lowering the overtime threshold for farm workers realize that.

Even Solento, who's not one to budge on workers' rights, says it would have to be in a way that doesn't break farmers.

- We're not opposed to a phase-in.

we want to make this something that the farm owners can live with, but also eventually gets us on a path to complete and utter fairness for the workers who are out there every single day.

And Ramos, the Senate labor chair, says if it does happen, there needs to be a clear path to get there.

But with safeguards and relief for farms already struggling to get by.

- The truth is that our farmers are going through a difficult time as well, unfortunately, and we can do more to help them.

But what we would like to see from the wage board is a move in that direction and a pathway, hopefully with milestones so that the workers can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

(dramatic music) - Now so far, we don't know when the wage board will meet, but we do know it's expected sometime soon.

So we'll keep you posted on that.

In the meantime, another industry is facing its own challenges.

The future of work in childcare in New York is critical right now.

More and more parents are heading back to work.

And that means they'll need childcare.

At the same time, childcare providers are closing their doors after a tough time during COVID.

And it's not just the pandemic.

The state's childcare industry has been in trouble for years, but soon that could change.

For this story, we take you into the childcare industry, its challenges and ideas for its future.

(dramatic music) Access to affordable and reliable childcare has been a problem in New York for decades.

For some parents it's too expensive, for others, it doesn't fit their schedule.

And the industry is changing.

At the start of the pandemic, there were 17,000 childcare providers in New York, according to the state.

But since then more than 1,500 have gone out of business.

Claudia Wolfgang is one of the lucky ones who were able to stay open.

She runs a home-based childcare in Rensler county.

- I started 36 years ago when my oldest daughter was born.

I couldn't find daycare.

We are 12 or 16, 12 children, infant to five.

And then four school-aged children.

- She cleans constantly and tries to get the children outside as much as possible.

And it's been a challenge like when the school aged kids had to learn from home, that was a problem.

So she gave up her garage.

With some help from a grant, she converted the space into a classroom for the kids.

- Because we cannot incorporate the school-aged children, because they were going to school part-time, with the children that are here.

We just kept, let's just keep the kids rolling, let's just keep, that was the focus.

Just keep the kids, their normal day.

Nothing, nothing will change.

- The day we spoke, three daycare providers that Claudia knew had just shut down.

She bought some of their stuff, like toys and play mats, but that didn't soften the blow.

For some, it was the end of their career after decades in business.

- And they, it's not just stuff.

This was their livelihood.

This was their investments.

This was all their time.

Not just 40 hours a week.

This is 50, 60, 70 hours a week for years.

And now they're closed.

- The pandemic hit childcare providers hard in New York.

Some of them lost customers, when parents started working remotely, and extra regulations to keep the virus at bay came with new costs that some providers just couldn't afford.

There's a slim profit margin in childcare.

So the money's not always there if something comes up.

Kate Breslin leads the Schuyler Center, a statewide nonprofit that works on family issues like childcare.

- So whether it's needing to spend more for protective gear, you know, PPE, or needing to spend more for cleaning supplies.

You add on the fact that a lot of programs lost children in the early moments of the pandemic.

So a lot of programs have had to close because they just couldn't make ends meet to stay open.

- But New York's childcare industry was in trouble long before the pandemic.

There are at least 3,000 fewer providers in New York than seven years ago, according to state data.

And it's not like there's less demand.

Parents compete all the time for spots.

Casey O'Connor knows that struggle.

His kids go to Claudia for childcare.

He has two, but at first there was only one spot open.

- It was very hard to find part-time daycare.

So we pretty much begged to get in here.

And we called there like every week.

- And when they did get in, it was a huge relief.

Not only because of Claudia, but because it was less expensive than a lot of other places.

- And part-time daycare did tend to be, you know, when they prorated it, they, you know, they spiked the prices on, on part-time as opposed, it is almost just as expensive to go part-time as it was full time, which was one of the major challenges.

- For a lot of parents, the cost of childcare can drive them out of the market.

The lucky ones have family or friends to watch their kid.

But without that support system, the bills can add up fast.

Breslin again.

- Childcare can cost upwards of $15,000 a year for one kid.

And then if you think about having two or more, sometimes it ends up driving one of the parents, often the mom, out of the workforce.

- So we have childcare providers who can't afford to stay open, and parents who can't afford childcare.

It's not a good mix for anyone.

And there is help for parents to deal with the cost, but it's not for everyone.

If your family makes less than twice the federal poverty level, you can apply for a childcare subsidy.

And under state law, your out of pocket costs after the subsidy is capped at 10% of your income.

So if you make $30,000 a year, you would only pay 3,000 for childcare.

Sheila Poole is the commissioner of the state Office of Children and Family services, the agency that regulates and supports childcare in New York.

And she says that for some families, getting a subsidy has been a game changer.

- Like I said, limiting copays to 10% of a family's income, you know, is trying to address the affordability.

So imagine what it's like for families, right?

Middle-class working families or families living in poverty to be able to afford and access childcare.

- But the income caps for those subsidies don't work for everyone.

Like for a single parent with one child, the cutoff to qualify is about 35,000 a year.

That's just a few thousand more than minimum wage.

And even if more families were eligible, there's not enough money for everyone.

So the state would need more funding to close that gap.

Poole says that would help, but wouldn't solve the other barriers to childcare.

- I think that really will help parents very much.

But then you have to make sure, right, that you have accessibility.

And that means having enough on the supply side.

- With fewer childcare providers, parents have a smaller pool to choose from.

And not all providers offer care that works for everyone.

For some parents, the challenge is time.

They'll work evenings or overnight, and it's hard to find childcare that fits their schedule.

That's the case with Amanda Key, a parent from Saratoga County who's juggling two kids at two different daycares.

- Yeah.

It's definitely a challenge.

Yeah, like I have to leave work early in order to get them before the daycares close.

- Her daycares are about a half hour apart, but she's out of options.

When we spoke, Amanda was with her daughter at Joyful Beginnings, a childcare provider outside Albany.

It's a center-based provider, meaning it has its own space.

It's run by Jason Wellington, whose mother inspired him to get into childcare.

- We serve children from six weeks to 12 years old, in our school age program.

Full-time in the summertime, obviously before and after school during the school year.

- He's got classrooms for the kids, with plenty to do, from learning to arts and crafts.

The kids seem pretty happy here.

And Jason says, they're making ends meet, but it's not perfect.

Like a lot of childcare providers, Jason has a lot of turnover.

And that's because of the pay.

After expenses, childcare providers usually make close to minimum wage.

So if a job with better pay comes along, they usually leave.

- I think retaining staff is a problem because of pay.

It's challenging.

I mean, it's, I don't know why that is.

Daycare is expensive.

So I mean, it should be some type of balance.

- And there's actually two problems there.

The pay scale isn't great.

And because of that, it's hard to make a career out of childcare.

Breslin, from the Schuyler Center, says that drives people away from the industry.

- There's also a lot of attention to, or desire among childcare providers to have more of a career pathway.

So they move on to do something else.

Sometimes that something else is going into teaching, or something else because they just can't make a living being a childcare provider.

- But it's not like childcare providers can offer better pay, either.

Most don't have the money.

And they can't raise their prices because they might lose kids.

Claudia, the home-based provider, says she wouldn't want to risk it.

- Okay, you could do that.

We could raise rates.

And maybe we wouldn't be full.

So it's kind of hard where you would go.

I always felt that I'd rather be full and be a little less high than other people.

- So what do you do?

That's what Senator Jabari Brisport, a Democrat from Brooklyn, is trying to figure out.

- In childcare, and right now we have a patchwork of providers and complicated means testing, and various percentages and thresholds.

And it's important to me to say that we are gonna move to a system where everyone, anywhere in the state can have access to childcare.

- Brisport chairs the Committee on Children and Families.

And he wants to carve a path for universal childcare.

That would mean access for every parent, support for providers and better pay for staff.

And that's going to cost money, but Bridgeport says the state can raise it.

- I think we will need to raise revenue, increase taxes on the rich and put more state investments into a universal childcare program.

That's the only way I see us having enough money to do this.

- But Commissioner Poole from OCFS says it's also about federal investment.

Right now, the state is paying for a lot of childcare subsidies and grants for providers using federal pandemic relief money.

And as of now, the state can't afford to replace it when it runs out.

- But make no mistake about it, right, that a couple of years from now, when that funding is exhausted, we are going to need additional federal support to sustain those gains we've made.

We're definitely gonna need more money in the long run.

- Paying for universal childcare would cost New York at least $2 billion a year, according to estimates from the state.

That would be money for parents and providers who need it, but money isn't everything.

Senator Dan Steck is the highest ranking Republican on the Committee on Children and Families.

And he says money would help, but that the state could also streamline regulations like licensing and operations to make it easier on providers.

- Most people that get into this, they want to take care of kids.

They don't want to take care of paperwork.

And they certainly want to focus on one time paperwork that they need to get set up in order to have a license.

You know, if that's the barrier to providers, let's remove that entry barrier for the would-be provider.

- Both of those ideas, funding and regulations, will likely be up for debate next year when the state budget is due.

But some say it's also about changing the conversation around childcare.

Right now, childcare is a privilege for those who can afford it.

But Breslin from the Schuyler Center says it shouldn't be that way.

- I think we need to start by rethinking how we think about childcare.

And we do need to think of it as a public good.

And we're in a moment post-pandemic, or mid to post-pandemic where we can think about how do we think of childcare as a public good, because it can be good for families.

It can be good for employers.

It can be good for communities.

(dramatic music) - So we should know more about New York's plans for childcare in January, when governor Kathy Hochul delivers her state of the state address.

In fact, that's when we'll find out a lot about next year and how Hochul will spend her first and maybe last full year as governor.

But we'll let you get back to your weekend.

Thanks for watching this week's "New York Now."

Have a great week and be well.

(dramatic music) - Funding for New York now is provided by WNET.